What About The Bee

January 17

Simon

Here is the Ordnance Survey detail of the livestock yard near Ordsall Lane, Salford. The Manchester end of the line.

The rail is definite, at this scale we see two rails for a single track. My interpretation of the retaining wall and the animal chutes is less certain.

Bee

January 17

In the US, generally accepted accounting practices assigns the value of warehouse at cost. Otherwise, management could assign any value to inventory desired by simply assuming a profit margin. A profit margin which may or not be realized, but certainly would forestall investor ire.

Thus preventing the books from being properly cooked.

Bee

January 17

Ntpntpntp

It has been my experience that Hornby have to "approve" of reviews and comments, before they appear.

Bee

January 17

Hello Simon

In very broad brush, both LT&SR_NSE and ThreeLink have it right. Remove a side, or end, and take the animals down a ramp.

The record is remarkably thin when it comes to period recorded details. 1) There is the livestock station at Ordsall Lane in Ordnance Survey maps. There is a structure trackside, and there could be animal chutes going right up to the rails. 2) there are the sheep wagon drawings which show doors on the sides and on the ends. 3) There is the Reynolds sketch, showing the sheep wagon with a plank style ramp on the side.

So we must use logic and reasoning to understand details.

A) I will suggest that side loading and unloading is more efficient than end loading. No need to uncouple the wagon, roll the wagon to the ramp, load and then recouple. Just align the ramp and wagon, unload, without uncoupling or coupling.

In particular, the sheep wagons that show doors on the ends are early drawings, the primary one by Booth, 1830. The later Ackermann prints all show side doors. Efficiency.

B) large animals, such as horse and cattle, would need an firm fixed ramp. Having lead horses up and down both fixed earth ramps and plank style ramps, I can tell you their preference: firm footing.

Making a plank style ramp stiff enough to support large animals would be massive and difficult to move around. Far easier to roll the wagon to the fixed ramp.

C) sheep and pig are smaller animals. The ramp could be either style, fixed or plank. The Ackermann print, showing the pig handler lifting the animal by the hind quarters is illustrative. Not all pigs are that small, but that one was.

D) The fixed ramp could be wood or earth. Either style is possible. The earth is simply dirt piled next to a retaining wall, next to the track. That will require periodic maintenance, throwing some more dirt on top. A fixed structure of wood could put the ramp right up to the very side of the wagon, just like the retaining wall. But the wood would require periodic replacement, large volumes of animals walking on wood, would destroy it. I think earth is more efficient.

Hope this helps!

Bee

January 17

Spend 60 seconds!

Big smiles! Trust me!!

Bee

January 16

Any manufacturer will tell you, the profit margin on spare parts is a gold mine. The customer needs the part. It usually cannot be obtained anywhere else. As such, the price on a spare part is sky high.

Suppose I make a gear for production models. In volume, I may spend less than £1 for each one. That would roll up into the wholesale cost, and with overhead and profit margins, sets the retail price.

But my pal Going Spare needs one. Just so happens that we have bins and bins if them. I can sell him one for £15.

Bee

January 16

While examining LMR details in the period Ackermann prints, I realized that there was an alternate Livestock Wagon portrayal. It differed in the location of the vertical posts.

So while I'm waiting for the "engineering samples" of the primary Livestock Wagon to be sent to me from Shapeways, I decided to create the CAD model of the alternate.

Let me begin with the period artwork. First, we have the Ackermann print of 1831. We can observe three men along with some pigs. The wagon is preceded and trailed by sheep wagons. The men are wearing hats and their coats have tails! The horizontal rails are inside of the vertical posts, and some posts are directly in the corners.

The Ackermann print of 1833 merely duplicates the print of 1831 in the details of this wagon. The only thing of note is how the artist colored in the jacket tails and the trailing wagon is now a Horse Box.

The Ackermann print of 1834 has redrawn the alternate Livestock wagon. You will see the primary Livestock wagon just in front, showing the two post arrangements, and where my moment of epiphany occurred. Further, the men have been removed from the alternate. Of interesting note, the artist who recreated the drawing of 1834 did not understand how the posts and slats should be arranged. It is poorly redrawn and unlikely to be based on a view of the actual wagon.

From this assessment, I infer that the wagon was not common, perhaps only in the first year or two of the LMR's existence, and that the other design was easier to use in railway practice. Where do the bolsters go? If on the outside of the floor plate, then the slat posts on the ends interfere with the buffers. If the posts are on top of the floor plate, then the corner bolster becomes very complicated. They cannot go inside the chassis either.

I started the CAD model deciding that each fence section would be its own body. That is, the slat ends and slat sides would, in actual practice be manipulated as an entity. How then to make the four slat sides overlap in the corner. I eventually came to this.

An isometric and top plan view are presented. The purple ends are separate from the blue sides. The corner posts have a similar appearance to the 1831 Ackermann print. An LMR worker could remove a side, or end, and the structure is still possible.

I decided to tab the sides to the floor, much like the Hornby Sheep and Horse Wagons. Square tabs in square holes. This eliminates any bolster design issues. There are none.

The problem with this approach is that the square holes are immediately above the standard Hornby chassis. Therefore, the square tab is only the thickness of the floor. This may make the slat ends and slat sides very unstable. They may simply fall over. On the primary Livestock wagon, I set the posts inside the chassis and thus can be 4x longer, no issue there.

To add stability, the tops of the posts in the corners will interlock with another square tab, square hole arrangement. I may even have to glue the slats on this wagon.

In any event, the CAD model for the alternate Livestock wagon will not be submitted to Shapeways until I see the actual prints on the first. Similar clearances and tolerances are present there, I may learn something from that.

Bee

January 15

Hello Daniel

Welcome Aboard!

Absolutely every model produced by Hornby is limited in production. Even good old Smokey Joe does not have infinite numbers. When it comes to special locomotives, the numbers become even more constricted.

Hornby are well aware of the "collector" nature of production. In limiting some models to X, they hope to encourage you to think that this is because Hornby wants to drive value. An alternative consideration is that this is how many they expect to sell, X, as that is what the market will bear.

So Hornby issue the model, and include a piece of paper. With printing on it. Which declares number x of X.

Instead of making X quantity of models, without the piece of paper and declaration of X.

Bee

January 15

Hello AndyMac

You wrote: "Supporting your local model shop does not mean buying items at a price from which the retailer can hardly make a living."

The local model shop is competing against the entire internet. The race to the lowest price for a common commodity. I can purchase Hornby R1234 from anyone these days. Every R1234 is the same, so why not purchase the cheapest. Or direct from Hornby. Frankly put, a retail shop of nearly any kind these days is in peril. No one promised the LMS a living wage. Where is it written that the LMS must survive?

But a retail shop is not "model railways". It may be what you associate with model railways, but it is not the thing. Model railways existed before the LMS. The LMS came about when a living in retail, purveying model railways, was viable. The LMS is not really viable against the internet. But that isn't the "end of the line for model railways", just the end of the line for some shops.

Neither are giant conventions "model railways". There were model railways before conventions and shows. Just as there will be after. Conventions are a business, not model railways.

Neither are railway modeling magazines, dying at a rapid rate because of the internet. They too, are not model railways.

Here is what I think "model railways" are: A model you build in your home. A pastime. If you build it and play with it, it isn't dead. Individual expression of creativity.

The businesses that spring up around model railways will come and go. Some last longer than others. Some are a flash in the pan. Others become institutions. None of them are guaranteed to survive. They are a business that provides a service and or product. When that isn't viable, they close.

A direct answer to JJ's titular question: "End of the line for model railways?"

Not for model railways, as long as there are individuals who build one. No, it is not the end of the line. Maybe for some businesses, making a meager living, selling meagers. But not for model railways.

Bee

January 15

1) The entire "catalog" is online. It may be sorted to show only what is in-stock.

2) Printed catalogs? How quaint.

~~~~~

The internet is changing how business is done. All up and down this hobby. The local model shop, the box shifters, the magazines, the manufacturers are all under pressure to change with the times.

Good old Fezziwig wouldn't change with the times. Preserving his way of life, he went out of business. Don't be Fezziwig, stuck in tradition.

The internet is here to stay. The printed catalog, as popular as it is with some people, is a dinosaur. It will be gone within a decade. Frankly, it is surprising it is still here now. It serves little purpose other than tradition. It was how Hornby used to announce product, before the internet. It will soon be extinct as the dodo. Moaning about it serves no purpose.

Now as to Colin's point, may I state that Hornby are directly aware of his issue. Martyn, Hornby Head of Brand, stated that there will be more frequent release announcements, with a product closer to release, when they announce. An exact response to the complaint.

A perfect example of this response is Locomotion No.1. They showed a working engineering model, running on track. Due at warehouse in Autumn 2024. Announced 9 January.

Not too shabby, unless you want them to stock the shelves with models, then sell it. Some businesses work this way. Like grocery stores. They will put out apples and wait for people to buy those apples. That expects Hornby to know how many "apples" to put on the shelf, based on the historical record of "apple" sales.

Okay, what is the historical record of R30346 sales? Do tell me. They have never offered it before.

Bee

January 15

Hi JJ

Exactly!!

The journalists who say model "railways are dead" do not believe a word of what they say. They do want you to look at their advertisements. How can they do that? Make up some nonsense to get you to panic. "Oh No! I better read this" you say and end up looking at their advertisements.

Same thing for certain reviewers on youTube. Not you, of course, but others. They say ridiculous things to make you want to watch them. And they get paid. So honest in reviews, they use affiliate links, meaning they get a referral fee.

If you like the product, why listen to folks who just want to run it down.

Bee

January 14

Hello Robin

Welcome aboard!

You can easily select which models are in-stock. It is easy to see models you can get, right now.

Of course, you need to use the internet and not a print catalog, because what is in-stock today could easily be sold-out, tomorrow.

Just "FILTER" your search to "show in-stock only". Voila!

Bee

January 14

ADDENDUM

During the Range Launch Q&A, Hornby Head of Brand specifically asked us to write in with our wishes. If you pre-ordered R30346 Locomotion No.1, then here is your opportunity!! Martyn said, send your ideas in to marketing. "No guarantees, but we'd like to hear from you"

Challenge Accepted!

In this thread, we have examined quite a few pieces of rolling stock associated with Locomotion No.1.

There is the tall shed passenger carriage illustrated in Smiles tome Life of George Stephenson. If you would be interested in this carriage, write to marketing@hornby.com, referencing this thread https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/carriages-wagons-for-locomotion-no1-377869 and state your desire. Personally, I would order one!

There is the elegant covered coach illustrated in the period depictions by Longridge. If you would be interested in this carriage, write to marketing@hornby.com, referencing this thread https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/carriages-wagons-for-locomotion-no1-377869 and state your desire. This is a definite for me. Experiment per period correct depictions, set for rolling in consist, hauled by Locomotion No.1! Yes!

If you would be interested in the horse drawn carriages, illustrated in the Union advertisement, write to marketing@hornby.com, referencing this thread https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/carriages-wagons-for-locomotion-no1-377869 and state your desire. There are several named versions. Defiance, Union, etc. One set of tooling, with multiple tampo artwork, gets multiple models. I would preorder these as well, particularly so with an eye to mounting on a motor bogie, the horse dangling via the traces. It would look spectacular trundling along, just as we see in the period artwork.

This is our chance to get the best rolling stock for Locomotion No.1 models, rolling stock that matches to period illustrations, in time for the 200th. If you pre-ordered Locomotion No.1, you owe it to yourself to tell Hornby about the matching rolling stock.

Take action!

Bee

January 14

Hiya JJ

To answer your question: NO!

But it is the end of the line for "journalists" who use clickbait to get views. There are any number of "journalists" who will present a nasty title, just to get you to come and see their ads.

Finally, I come to the fountains of negativity. The youTube self appointed guardians of model railways. The folks who must find something to criticize, to find fault with. How indeed would they get views unless they bad mouth a product.

I ignore them all. I've unsubscribed. I do not click on doom and gloom articles. I do not have the time of day for their so-called "independent reviews". Please tell me why there are affiliate links, if you are so darned independent. Peddle your advertisements elsewhere.

Bee

January 14

After further research, I am able to give a date range for the creation of the image in Smiles' Life of George Stephenson. The drawing does not appear in the first 4 editions of the tome. The first edition was published in 1857. As late as 1860, in the fourth edition, there is only a written description. In the 1863 abridged edition, there appears a list of illustrations. One is of "Experiment", in the rough tall shed like form shown in the previous post.

From this, I conclude that image is NOT a period image, rather, it dates between 1860-1863, just as Smiles written description dates from 1857.

I would now like to turn to Longridge, published in 1832, to bring further clarity. He also includes a written description of the consist on opening day. It reads: Locomotive Engineer, Mr Stephenson and assistants. Tender with coals and water; next, 6 waggons loaded with coals and flour; then an elegant covered coach, with the committee and other proprietors of the Rail-Way; then 21 waggons, fitted up on the occasion for passengers and last of all, 6 waggons loaded with coals, making all together a train of 38 carriages, exclusive of the engine and tender.

"Elegant covered coach" fits the image depicted in Longridge. "Elegant covered coach", at least in my mind, does not fit the 1860 to 1863 depiction in Smiles. Your mileage may vary.

In another portion of the opening day text, Longridge states approximately 600 passengers and with the other loads, Active was pulling a load of 80 tons. This is larger than the value I computed earlier of 55 tons.

In the first post of this thread, I warned that we should be careful when looking at the 1925 centenary images. They may have entered the popular imagination, but those centenary images are tricky. I have learned a few things along this journey, and I hope you have too!

1) The locomotive in the S&DR centenary is the Hetton Colliery locomotive of 1852, not Locomotion No.1 of 1825. There are similarities, enough so to fool the uneducated, and that included me.

2) "Experiment" is as Longridge shows it. His period written description matches the period depiction. "Experiment" as Smiles describes in 1857 and illustrates in 1860 - 1863 are both non-period. May I suggest that it makes for an inspirational story about the hero and as a plot device helps to move the plot along, but the plot device may not be authentic. From Smiles, the 50th anniversary poster of 1875 picks up the image. The tall shed also appears in the 1925 centenary, cementing it in public imagination. It appears in the reproduction train at Beamish. The tall shed passenger carriage may yet be real, but it is decidedly not "Experiment".

3) Active, with slide valve gear, is portrayed in the Longridge depiction and called that in the text. Active was fitted with parallel valve gear in 1828, 3 years after opening. This explains why Locomotion No.1 doesn't appear as we expect in Longridge.

4) Locomotion No.1 had a number 1 on its smokestack by 1828, but was only renamed to Locomotion by July 1833.

5) Longridge states the tender had water. Based on the depiction, it was a tiny tank, just above the wooden wall of the utility wagon.

Bee

January 14

There is an interesting divergence when it comes to "Experiment". You will see the name applied to two forms, which I will review here. We know "Experiment" existed, as it is so referenced in this period advertisement.

In "The life of George Stephenson, Railway Engineer" Samuel Smiles, 1857, we have this image and the story that George Stephenson was asked the name of the carriage. He replied "Experiment"

In the preface, Smiles acknowledges Robert Stephenson but not George. That is, Smiles communicated with Robert, but not George. Importantly, Robert shipped out to South America in 1824 with a contract for 3 years. He could not have been present at the S&DR opening. Robert Stephenson & Co did build Locomotion but not the rolling stock for the Stockton & Darlington.

I will ask the obvious question. How could he then certify the form of "Experiment", when he neither built the carriage nor witnessed the opening? We can trust when Robert certifies the Rainhill utility wagons, as he was there, but not so for "Experiment".

The other form of the carriage is as Longridge. There is an 1881 engraving, American artist, who provides us with this

With the obvious deficiencies that the artist lived on the wrong continent and the wrong era, the image does align with Longridge and the Union advert fairly well.

I cannot say which is correct. I would tend to accept the Longridge illustrations. They have shown themselves quite accurate vis Locomotion/Active. Yet the 50 year anniversary and centenary celebration followed the Smiles illustration, setting public expectation via popular history.

Now if I was Hornby Head of Marketing and had to decide!?!? I would simply make both, as a set. Kind of like this Churchman's cigarette card

Bee

January 14

You are quite welcome Rallymatt.

Bee

January 13

Fazy

Color me jealous! You got a footplate ride on the reproduction Locomotion No.1. Fantastic!

The reproduction was built for the 150th anniversary in 1975 and gave rides at Beamish.

~~For those who wish to see Locomotion No.1, under steam, here at the centenary, in 1925.~~

[Edit: Nay Nay, it is the Hetton Colliery Engine of 1852. Apologies.]

British Pathe film, and it must be the actual locomotive, predating the reproduction by 50 years.

Bee

January 13

Drat you LT&SR_NSE! I already have 9 Accurascale Chaldrons. I like them, yet none are S&DR. Up until this very moment, I was unaware that I needed 9 more. Gee, thanks...I guess! 🙂

Lion hauling 9 Chaldrons. I think we can expect Locomotion No.1 to handle the same

Tiger and Lion banking 9 chaldrons

Bee

January 13

Hello John

I do not have a Hornby Dublo A4. Nor will I ever. That said, your question needs answering, as certainly, you are not the only person to ever purchase a Dublo A4.

Yet I cannot find a corresponding Service Sheet. Perhaps Going Spare has a reference, but my search yields nothing.

Would you care to post an image of the inside section of the part to be fitted? It is likely to show the attachment points. From this, perhaps we can reason where they are on the bogie. From that, how to detach the unwanted part.

On the continued possibility that you are the first, ever, to attach the desired part; having a record of what you did will help others.

My apologies for not being of more help.

Perhaps bringing your post back on top will encourage another to bravely post!

Bee

January 13

Hello Fazy

The concept of railway preservation begins with Locomotion. Indeed, it was one of the first to be preserved.

You bring up a valid point. What are the manufacturers to produce if neither the prototypes nor machine drawings exist. Should manufacturers like Hornby, Accurascale, et al. produce a copy of a reproduction? What if the reproduction is also an interpretation of a sketch?

Here is the classic example. The LMS reproductions of LMR carriages. Clearly do not match the Ackermann aquatints in many details, because the LMS reproductions are interpretations. So when Hornby produced their version, they interpreted the LMS interpretation, leading to further compromise and error. An interpretation of an interpretation.

So in simple fact, going to the original sources, such as they are, will always yield better fidelity and less error.

Here is why I always insist on period imagery. This image purports to be of Opening Day. It was drawn in 1888.

What a magnificent image. The artistry is very good. All of the features we expect are there. The bridge. The double ended passenger carriage has 'Stockton Darlington' on the side. The flag chaldron behind the double ended passenger carriage. The chaldrons. Even Locomotion No.1 is there.

The problem? Locomotion No.1 did not look like that until 1828. Opening Day was 1825. If I was to trust this image, then my understanding would be corrupted, the factual basis of that understanding in error. Again, lovely image. I like it. Too bad it is junk.

Here is an image that purports to depict Stockton and Darlington equipment of 1825.

Wonderful side elevation of the double ended passenger carriage. By now, you should be saying "Same problem, that isn't Locomotion in 1825". Further, take a very careful look at the double ended passenger carriage and compare it to 'The Union' in the advert and to the one Longridge depicts. In my eye, the one here is not like the others. It is similar, but suffers from serious errors in depiction, like the chassis length. An interpretation.

It is hard enough to winnow truth from imagery, with period drawings sometimes conflicting or plagiarized. Permitting non-period images, non-period reproductions which are interpretations merely confuses the issue even more.

Trust period resources and preserved antiquities. Be rigorous in research.

Bee

January 12

Look above for more period images and explanation of the double ended passenger carriages. They were just approved by moderation. Thank you moderators!

Hi LT&SR_NSE

From the NRM Report:

No.1 was first identified by the application of a brass number fixed to its chimney from 1827. The name LOCOMOTION was first applied, in addition to No.1, from July 1833. No contemporary record has been found to suggest that a cast name was fitted from this time, or that a painted name was applied to the boiler cladding.

What is a proper chaldron consist for Locomotion?

Pambour, 1840, contains a table which shows the work done by "Locomotion" between July and December, 1833.

Locomotion made 5,300 miles on a 25 mile line, or 212 trips. The table claims 146,011 tons of coal was hauled, "to one mile". I take the "to one mile" to mean "per mile". We must reduce the tonnage by a factor of 25, the length of the line.

This yields ~27.5 tons per trip. But the locomotive would go loaded and return empty. Therefore, 55 tons per loaded trip.

A chaldron has two meanings. A chaldron wagon, as Accurascale wagons. But a chaldron is a unit of measure, 1 chaldron = 53cwt or 2.97 tons. That is, a fully loaded chaldron wagon contained 53cwt of coal.

55 tons / loaded trip divided by 2.97 tons/chaldron = ~18.5 chaldrons/trip.

Conclusion: 18 or 19 chaldons, on average.

It will be interesting to see how many Accurascale Chaldrons that R30346 will be able to haul. Careful testing with Hornby's OO Lion and OO Tiger may indicate the right answer¹.

Will Accurascale release 1825 type Stockton and Darlington chaldrons? I had a brief email exchange with a director at Accurascale who was of course was tight lipped. Friendly, but unwilling to spill any beans. Time will tell.

Bee

¹Of course, Hornby could release their own chaldrons, but then why the statement in the Q&A video about OO Locomotion "working with Accurascale"? Statement by Carl, Head of Development at Hornby. The director at Accurascale did indicate that the phrase "working with Accurascale" did NOT mean an engineering contact. Accurascale stated that there wasn't any collaborative effort between the two companies. I am left with the conclusion that "working with Accurascale" means functional with Accurascale chaldrons.

January 12

LT&SR_NSE

Thank you sir! Wow!

On page 138 of the report, the mystery of the locomotive depicted by Longridge becomes crystal clear. I will get to that.

The locomotive I suggested in the original post was Stephenson's Killingworth Locomotive. In fact, the report you linked uses this same image extensively. It is from Wood, Practical Treatise, 1825. You may find it on Plate V.

The NRM report states that the valve gear motion that Locomotion No.1 originally had was of the Killingworth type. This makes perfect sense, of course, as Stephenson was the principal engineer on both. Per the report sketches by George Stephenson suggest this, although I will need more research to locate and examine those sketches. The NRM report further states that the parallel motion valve gear that we so associate with Locomotion No.1 was probably fitted in 1828.

Could this mean that the Longridge depiction of the consist actually shows Locomotion No.1 in original form???? More to come

Bee

Edit: the NRM report shows that the Longridge depiction of consist is, in fact, Active, or Locomotion No.1, with the slide bar motion instead of the parallel motion Stephenson wanted. Mystery solved!

January 12

Hello Three Link

Reynolds apparently liked putting military figures into his drawings. They appear as well in his sketch of a 2nd Class Train of the LMR.

As to the thought that the figure on the double ended carriage is holding a rifle? I cannot say. The sketch does not offer enough detail to be sure.

Bee

January 12

Soldiering on, the research continues. The first of the double ended passenger carriages was named "Express", with following similar carriages named "Defence", "Defiance" and "Union"

Here is a period image of "Union" from 1826

Of primary interest is that the carriage here is horse drawn. Longridge clearly depicts this carriage in consist, I take this to mean that it could be hauled either way.

Secondly, that we see inside and outside fares! In surrounding text, the double ended nature of the carriage becomes clear. They did not turn the carriage around at terminus, merely placing the horse around at the other end.

Next, we have this wonderful port view of Stockton-on-Tees, from 1830

On the left hand side of the image, you will find this

Squint a bit, and you will see the double ended, horse drawn passenger carriage

Bee

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