What About The Bee
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Posts posted by What About The Bee
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Hi Al
Along the lines of trying with ideas:
1) A book labeled "Log Book". Active hours are generally constrained and thus recorded. A Log Book may or may not fit with your era and railway, but could logically and easily fit. Of course, the running joke wiil be that your engineer appears "glued to his seat and never goes off duty." 😁
2) A clipboard with a sheaf of papers labeled "Manifest" with illegible lines below it, so the manifest suits any consist.
3) Many crew will travel with a duty bag. It would carry required equipment, manuals, tools, safety gear, etc. Kind of like a very oversized briefcase. One each for conductor and engineer.
4) In cooler weather, the crew will have work jackets or even work coats. The cab is heated, of course, so a coat or jacket hanging on the back wall would be appropriate.
5) I like Rana's idea about tea. A proper mug with all the accoutrements. A wisp of cotton will make it a steaming cup of tea.
6) Two way radios? Long consists will require remote crew communications.
Bee -
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Hi Atom
Newspapers would be perfect for passengers. Modern image modelers could certainly go with a ubiquitous cell phone in hand
But for the crew, a different set of rules applies. I do not know how it is in the UK, but here in the US, the interior of the cab is recorded. Up until recently, this was voluntary, but the FRA is now mandating compliance, with a 12 hour loop.
If you want to lose your job as an engineer, this is an easy way.
Newspapers in the cab is a no no.
Bee
Edit to add: all the control settings are recorded, some on a ½ second update rate
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LennyC's faithless review is now removed from the Locomotion No.1 product page.
My question about the coupling was not posted. Sure, I know the answer, because I had the temerity to directly ask staff. Hornby also published the answer in Engine Shed so, yes, the question has been answered. Yet not for the next person only browing the product page.
There were some interesting details in Engine Shed about the Locomotion No.1 model. Plus, an overhead shot of the valve gear. Worth a peek!
Bee
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Further research has revealed this carriage to make only the very briefest of appearances. We have notice that Stephenson was going to experiment with it, and one week later, reports of Huskisson's joy ride. That constitutes the entire record. The joy ride reports are not simply reprints, some do have different details. One report notes the proprietors caution regarding the 1¼ mile joy ride down through the Wapping Tunnel: "...lest an accident occur ... the waggons were not permitted to run at full speed, but the velocity was nevertheless great, the ride was performed in about 5 minutes". The maths work out to 15 mph. How they didn't explode into atoms from the incredible velocity is beyond me 😉.
There was also a 'famous' race horse named Velocipede during this same time frame, leading me down a series of false positives. Amusing to relate now, not so amusing during the search.
Bee
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Thank you Rana. Mr Petrie was a founding member of the Guild of Railway Artists. It was quite fitting that he would illustrate those inspiring scenes
Bee
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Hi Colin
You asked why " people get so twitchy over YouTubers"?
YouTube offers a window like no other. You can see what hundreds, if not thousands, of modelers are doing. Techniques, scenery, ballast, aqueducts, you name it and naturally, product reviews.
All from the comfort of home. I need not join a club or talk to anyone. I can watch at my leisure, or turn the unappealing nonsense off.
I like Charlie's videos. He is enthusiastic. His videos are well edited. The subject matter is coherently presented. He has a terrific layout. Fundamentally, this combination is why his channel wins awards. But I had no reference frame to evaluate that particular remark, hence why I asked. Now answered. Thank you Colin.
Bee
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With passenger traffic well underway¹, the Liverpool and Manchester railway turned its attention to freight. We have notice of the first pigs to travel by railway, ever, in May of 1831.
We also have notice, in October of 1831, that traffic of sheep and "horned cattle" will soon begin.
Progress Report: Cattle Waggon
The latest prints came back from Shapeways. A trial fit of parts is always in order.
The deficiencies in the floor are corrected. The bolts in the slat sides were made taller. This had the unfortunate affect of making them very fragile. I noted several were missing, directly upon removal from the shipping bag². This will need correction in design.
The height of the bolts did make them much easier to blacken without touching the background. The irregular bolt pattern is caused by missing bolts.
Painting up to the bolts, but not over, was much more readily accomplished. The bolts are now ~1/64" high. Quite happy with the way these waggons are turning out. Version 1.5 on left with taller bolts, 1.0 on right.
Ackermann: Cattle on left, pigs on right.
Bee
¹It is noted that 460,000 passengers traveled on the LMR in the first year, alone.
²they were not in the bag, leading me to believe that they broke off at Shapeways. It is my design in error.
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Thank you Rallymatt. I have nothing to base Charlie's assertion on and thought to test that with those I trust.
He does seem to be quite popular with those who vote for "best youtuber". Perhaps that was a misguided moment by Charlie. He is doing a very good job on presenting his layout.
I certainly did not mean to ruffle any feathers.
Bee
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Welp, it is clear I misunderstood your missive ThreeLink. Sorry about that!
Bee
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Hi BritInVanCA
American here, in the USA.
I feel your anguish. The models I want are not in the HornbyUSA store. No LMR or other Era 1 morsel? Yeah, no thanks.
So I do not bother, even though the Hornby UK webpages seem determined to send me back here.
There is one basic solution. Peruse the UK pages and pay for it to be shipped here. I know, I know. Its expensive. Not as rich as the lads in Australia pay, but it is steep.
Is Hornby correct to not sell UK models here? I've seen any number of Hornby models on eBay, product location in North America. Surely you have too. So there is an interest. Is it enough to satisfy Hornby? They may not think so.
Bee
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Some new information has emerged regarding curtains and carriages. The information has been gleaned from the British press.
The first is an article from the Caledonian Mercury, dated 30 Sept 1830. 15 days after Opening Day. In it, the correspondent indicated that a carriage had a central compartment "fitted up like a stage coach¹, but with more glass". Further, that the other compartments if that carriage "had merely curtains to draw in case of rain". You will note that these are the "superior" carriages, and that lesser carriages exist. The Caledonian Mercury informs us that the lesser carriages are only with a covering above; and by direct implication, not the sides.
(Remember, you can zoom these images to read the text)
I have provided an illustration of curtain carriages before, by Crane. Henry Booth himself illustrates one, Queen Adelaide. Dawson, digging through Board records, identifies four carriages constructed thusly: Croxteth, Fair Trader, Queen Adelaide and Royal William.
The Derby Mercury, dated 13 October 1830 provides richer data. In fact, it unlocks the reason why curtain carriages went away.
"Complaints ... first class carriages ... quite open on the sides". The Directors apologize and offer that "first class carriages now depart ... are either glass carriages or completely curtained".
Full stop. "Completely curtained"?
This statement could be interpreted that individual compartments are completely curtained. Alternatively, that the entire carriage is completely curtained. Yet the association, however you take it, is that curtains are associated with first class, and in referencing the first newspaper article, not second class.
There is only one completely curtained carriage ever illustrated: the Booth Carriage realized in Hornby R30090. Unlike the Hornby assertion, this is an early first class carriage.
"Very shortly, all the carriages will be protected from the weather. Additional coaches are building ... to render railway conveyance ... satisfactory to the public."
Assessment? The LMR got rid of curtain carriages because the public didn't like them. The early Fall would have been quite brisk on the LMR, engendering those complaints.
I had originally thought that the LMR would have put the curtain carriages away because they were summer only. The public thought so too, and complained enough for the LMR Directors to notice within weeks of opening and to cause them to take action.
Dawson records that two of the curtain carriages were converted by 1832 (Queen Adelaide and Royal William) with the remaining two converted in 1833. We only see the fully curtained carriage in Booth (1830) and Walker (1831), and then they disappear from the record as well.
Bee
¹I came across a printed list of corny jokes from 1828. One was "When is a door not a door? When it is a jar", proving that this joke has been in circulation for 200 years. Another is "What are the best shoes for wet weather? Pumps". So called dad jokes. This one is interesting. "Why are glass coaches so plentiful in London? Because they are without number". The joke relies upon the fact that hack carriages for hire did not have a number displayed. The interest for me is that the term glass carriage (coach) did not originate with the LMR. Further, the term was so readily accepted, it appears in a joke in 1828. A reference point for the public when advertising fares. The term refers to a window that could be raised in inclement weather, made of glass.
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Hello Rana
The two images on the left are derivatives of Bury (top) and Walker (bottom). That is, some other artist used those period pieces to create "new" art. All four do appear by the same artist.
There was a suggestion that it was Alan Fearnley, active in the 1970s, but I could not find a definitive match.
None are period art that I can attribute to a known source. I tried reverse image searching, but decided to stop. Plenty of folks using those images and none citing a source.
Would you mind photographing the rear. There may be a clue there we can use.
And thank you for posting them. You never know when we may get a lucky strike!
Bee
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Hi ThreeLink
It is entirely possible that the small outrigger was to mount the third wheel. Those types of railway conveyances are known to exist. They suffer from the serious defect that the center of gravity can easily transition to outside of, instead of over, the rails. This in turn leads to nasty spills.
Bee
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I have not seen this from any other research. Dawson does not mention it. Neither does Thomas. Both are respected researchers of the LMR, Dawson still active.
The details of the report are so odd that I thought the reporter was making a satirical joke. But then I saw it being reported on again, and in a way that showed the reporting was in earnest.
The first report is in the Derby Mercury, dated 26 Aug 1829, over a year before Opening Day. It states: "Mr. Stephenson is about to try the experiment whether the strength of a man mounted on a velocipede can be advantageously applied to the propulsion of carriages on the railway. The velocipede will be attached to the carriage behind, and the rider will push himself and the carriage forward by the working of his legs"
As I mentioned, I thought this a prank. For those who do not know, a velocipede is a very early bicycle. Before 1860ish, they didn't even have pedals. Before 1817, the vehicle could not even be steered, two fixed wheels connected. Even if a velocipede was experimented with, it must have been quickly discarded, as a man on a velocipede will have difficulty driving a railway carriage forward. A silly experiment that should have gone nowhere.
But then, I saw a report in the Bristol Mercury, dated 1 Sept 1829. Although the railway as a whole was not open, the Wapping Tunnel itself was. Tourists could walk in the tunnel. For the lucky, tourists were placed in a carriage at the top of the tunnel, and pushed over the brink. Although this article doesn't state it, a brakeman both modulated the speed and brought the carriage to a halt at the bottom. I like to think of it as roller coaster joy riding. I have noticed a few reports of this activity.
What makes this story authentic was the presence of notables.
MP Huskisson arrives for his joyride in a very specific carriage. Open sides, with a cloth canopy. The canopy cloth, green. Described as "light". Two velocipede saddles affixed to the rear. Human propelled. Huskisson gets into a different waggon for the joyride but arrives in the velocipede carriage!
Now I ask you, who had a velocipede powered carriage as an expected outcome? Not me, that's for certain. Needless to say, no images exists.
Bee
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Hello ThreeLink
You raise a very good point about Huskisson.
18" or so is a substantial increase in platform height for human anatomy. Particularly so for Huskisson, aged 60 at the time of the incident. Add the normal platform height of other carriages, and note those other carriages have stirrups for assistance. Issac Shaw, capturing the details, does not show any stirrups on the ceremonial carriages.
It makes one wonder how any of the Duke's suite managed to get on. Many aged members of the peerage¹ were in the ceremonial carriages. They didn't just leap on-board.
It is no secret that I am mining the British press for details about the LMR. It was newsworthy² and many details are reported. Now, newspapers then are just as they are now. Sensationalism to sell papers. Huskisson's death is played to the maximum. A detail which is not important, but received extraordinary press attention at the time, was that Mrs. Huskisson was present and witnessed her husband's accident. The pathos was palpable.
But in so mining the press, I have come to see that many were killed in a similar manner, both before and after Huskisson. For example, William Fewburn was run over by "Twin Sisters, the oldest locomotive on the railway" in a report dated 12 Feb 1831. His body parted in two, he expired on the spot. There are so many reports, that there is a heading for it in the press: "Accident on the Railway". I've not mined that vein yet, but could not but help noticing it in the many articles scanned.
Is the death of Huskisson notable because it was unique? Not even close, he was really just a statistic³. Was it notable because of his station? Others who met their demise were not MPs. Was is because it happened in front of the Duke of Wellington, a very lofty rank in the peerage? Maybe. Was it notable because it sold papers? Absolutely yes.
The ironic nature of his demise could not have been missed by the public. The LMR's champion in Parliament was Huskisson, and he met his demise at the hand of the LMR, on its most triumphant of days. He promoted the very thing that caused his demise.
Bee
¹I've checked the list. While the peerage does include some lofty figures, none are members of the British Royal Family.
²For awhile anyway. The press could not sensationalize the mundane operations of the LMR.
³to paraphrase a particularly evil russian dictator.
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Re: the fireman in the Range Release video. In that sequence, the fireman is on the right had side, but he is looking at the tank on the tender, towards the rear. In the newly released image, the fireman switches sides, but now looks to the front.
In other words, it is the exact same fireman (now with paint) with his head turned in the same direction on his torso.
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Hello Aussie Fred,
Someone at Hornby had to approve that review, else it would not be permitted.
I have submitted two questions to Hornby, using the "questions" tab next to the review.
The first question was regarding the coupling type. When that didn't get updated, I wrote directly to Hornby Head of Development, requesting clarification. In an email to me, he stated that there will be a post for the finescale chain and that there would be a magnetic adaptor to couple to Accurascale Chaldrons. The web page still has not been updated, weeks in. [There will also be a matching magnetic coupling, on a chain with a NEM plug, to install in your rolling stock with a NEM pocket]
The second question was in regards to the faithless review by "LennyC". I asked Hornby how a review could be published by a customer, when the model hasn't shipped from Hornby. Based on the number of downvotes, it is clear that the public agrees. Needless to say, that has not been responded to, as the review abides.
Hornby should delete that "review" and pay more attention to future reviews as they come in.
Bee
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I am very hopeful of a Hornby model coincident with the 200th Anniversary of the Opening of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway. 15 Sept 1830 - 15 Sept 2030. I could make one on my own, yet this is exactly the type of model Hornby likes, a direct association with some type of event.
Now ordinarily, I am extremely leary of the colors in an aquatint. In this case, however we can be very sure.
A portion of an article in the Liverpool Albion, 21 Sept 1830 provides us with a great description, to include the two primary colors.
They are crimson and gilt. For quite some time, I thought the portrayal above oversaturated and not true to life. Gilt has a luster hard to reproduce with paint, as any artist will tell you. Yet crimson is not.
Other details such as the ducal coronets are faithfully drawn by Shaw, once again confirming his accuracy.
An interesting detail is that the overhead canopy is 24', while the carriage itself is 32' long. The fore and aft "balconies" are also confirmed, with gilt balustrades
But what of the Ottoman?
The great weakness of the bogie thesis is the limited space between the floor and the chassis, where the swivel must reside. That is roughly 12 to 18 inches of vertical displacement, based on head heights.
The ottoman voids that argument, as it "ran down the center of the platform". A "sitting ottoman" is simply a box, knee high, with a cushion on top. Any swivel machinery could easily be concealed in that void.
By itself, the ottoman is just a detail. When considered with the other bogie swivel arguments, it adds to the tapestry of confirming discussion.
Bee
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The fireman is now seated on the opposite side of the tender.
During range release, the video showed the fireman on the right facing forward, the engineman on the left.
Now both are on the left
Bee
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Hi LT&SR_NSE
The play of shadows on boiler from the valve gear and the engineman's legs leads me to the same conclusion you arrived at.
It could be a CAD render but...
Bee
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Hello ChrisBWC
There is always the possibility that a particular chain will function. It is what the LMR themselves used in early days, a chain.
Yet the Hornby finescale chain post is very close to the chassis. Most all chain is made of wire, bent into loops. When I made my adaptor to the Accurascale Chaldrons, I used 0.8mm diameter wire. It did it not slide in between the post and chassis. After a bit of fettling, I got it to fit, but then it wasn't free to move until I reduced that wire even more.
Bee
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This is quite high on my want list. The Duke of Wellington was Prime Minister upon LMR Opening Day, and this special carriage was constructed for his attendance, just for the day. You may see it on the left, as drawn by Shaw, a known good observer.
This carriage does not seem to fit the "standard" carriage as constructed by the LMR.
Firstly, there are 4 axles. One of the principle claims of Patentee was the flangeless wheels on the center axle, by Stephenson, in 1834. Yet Opening Day was 1830. Flangeless wheels could not be a patent in 1834 if they existed in 1830. Yet four axles, with flanged wheels, will have problems with curves.
Secondly, in an era of tiny wheel bases, this carriage is ridiculously long. We know from Armengaud that the early turntables had only 2 meters of track. The wheelbase of the early carriages in Ackermann shows the carriages were made to fit that 2 meters.
So how in the world did the Duke's carriage travel from Liverpool to Manchester on that fateful day?
I may have an answer. I am working on the log wagon in CAD, as depicted by Ackermann.
That suffers from the exact same defect as above. How did this ever get around a curve? Francis Whishaw, The railways of Great Britain and Ireland practically described and illustrated, provides us with the answer to log wagons.
"When timber is to be conveyed on the railway, it is placed on two trucks properly built for this purpose. Above the ordinary truck-platform are fixed cross pieces of timber, curved towards the middle, which is higher than the sides by about 2 inches; above these are cross-timbers 12 inches by 8 inches, and curved upwards as to their ends, which are 4 inches above the fixed cross-pieces. Each of these pieces turns on a swivel fixed in the middle of the cross-timber. This arrangement allows the wagons to have proper play in going round curves." While the Ackermann drawing does not show the swivel, it must be there nonetheless.
Before I return to the Duke's special carriage, a brief aside into perspective and vanishing points. One of the hallmarks of accurate portrayals is mastery of perspective and the lines they create. Issac Shaw understood the task. Go to the first image and examine the track. A perfect illustration of the technique. Issac Shaw understood the task of accurate depiction.
Did the Duke's special carriage have two bogies?
I will refer to this as the annotated image. In the annotated image, there are three carriages shown.
The green perspective line shows the height of the standard roof above rail. The Duke's roof could be raised simply to demonstrate importance. Alternatively, it could be raised to accommodate the folks under it.
The yellow line is somewhat arbitrary, but shows the head heights of individuals. Pay close attention to top hats in the first and third carriages for perspective accuracy of the yellow line in the annotated image. Yet what of the Duke's carriage. Now the people in the Duke's carriage could be abnormally tall. Alternatively, it could mean that they are standing on a raised dias.
A dias is associated with importance and the Duke of Wellington was the Prime Minister. A dias would be quite fitting for a person of his station. A raised platform, or dias, is also consistent with a swivel arrangement under the dias.
Examine the axles, highlighted by the red dots. Now something jumps out at me here, it is the spacing of those axles. The front two as a set have very similar spacing to the separate carriage before it, closer to Northumbrian. Similarly, the rear two axles have the same spacing to the carriage ahead. The carriage ahead has that unique short wheelbase, used to ride on LMR turntables. Indeed, even the carriage just behind the locomotive Northumbrian has the short wheelbase, albeit clipped from annotated image. It appears that the LMR used two chassis sets to make the Duke's special carriage. It could have been a special chassis, of course, but it would have been far easier to just grab two chassis from stock.
Summing up.
Two chassis likely used to construct the Duke's carriage. All the wheels likely flanged, making curves difficult, but not if in a bogie arrangement. The height of the platform accommodating a swivel. The height of the persons in the Dukes carriage, proving a raised floor. The height of the roof, raised to accommodate the raised passengers. All consistent with permitting a bogie arrangement. Finally Issac Shaw provides accurate depictions, we cannot explain this away by stating a fanciful depiction.
I think the LMR provided us with the first carriage with rotating front and rear bogies. The evidence, while not airtight, is quite suggestive.
Your thoughts?
Bee
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Hello CA
I did a brief search, and while not definitive, found nothing.
Something did occur to me. R30166 is a class 91. The Driving Van Trailer, or DVT, for a class 91 is a mark 4. A mark 4 DVT very much resembles a class 91 locomotive.
Perhaps another R30166, with some careful modeling, will produce the DVT in the livery you want.
Bee
How to insert an image in New Forum?
in Forum & Website Feedback
Posted
Thanks.
Just realized if the forum asks for display name, I am a guest. Needed to sign in
Bee