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What About The Bee

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Posts posted by What About The Bee

    These always sting a little.

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Hi Dark Red Cape

    I must apologize.  I lost all my mind reading skills, directly after my surgical operation🙃

    Perhaps you are upset that you paid list price, and now Hornby has offered a significant reduction.  The converse would be that you waited for a price reduction, and Hornby sold out.

    We have all been there.  I comfort myself by acknowledging that I was happy with my purchase when it was made.  That I supported the institution that is Hornby. 

    Sure, I could have gambled on a price reduction.  I didn't.  I was happy then, I'm still satisfied now.  

    Bee

    • Like 3

    LMR: The Booth 2nd Class Carriage

    in General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by What About The Bee

    Once I reach a milestone in CAD, I like to study the imagery, to spot the differences between what I have designed, and what I was attempting to model.  That is, does my sketch resemble the prototype?

    The Booth 1830 2nd Class Carriage is no exception.

    The first thing I noticed was that the openings for passengers to step through have rounded bottoms, while I have modeled it as square apertures.  This should be relatively easy to fix.

    Another is the weight of the wrought iron handrails.  They are a scale 2⅜", which is quite a heavy bar.  They should be smaller in diameter.  Yet, at a true 0.8 mm (0.031"), they will be extremely fragile in 3D print.  I wonder if I should go with copper wire?  Probably so.

    And then I come to the black semicircles.  I have no idea what these might be and perhaps someone would venture a guess.

    large.Whataretheblacksemicircles.png.635c84ffb44f23832141f02766b9be52.png

    To aid in the identification, I placed the Booth 1830 2nd Class carriage next to the Stephenson 2nd carriage.  I sized the depth of the seats to be as close to identical as possible, reasoning that anatomically, a second class seat will be the same.  I then aligned the top of the seats, vertically, yellow line.  Notice that the rail aligns.  The tops of the open seats are roughly the same height as the peak of the Stephenson carriage.

    Here is what I do NOT think the black semicircles are.  The floor.  The green line is the floor, extended from the Stephenson 2nd to the Booth 1830 2nd.   Anatomically, a seat is a seat, independent of carriage. The green line is quite close to the base of the aperture.  Meaning the opening isn't a trip step, the base of the opening aligns to the green line fairly well given the crude Booth sketch.  Yet, if they are the floor, they are entirely too high.  

    So if they do not represent the floor of the 'compartments', what do you think the black semicircles are??

    large.Booth1830SecondClass.jpg.44950bacf77bc355c339c6fab7b1ef41.jpg

    Bee

    • Like 1

    LMR: The Booth 2nd Class Carriage

    in General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by What About The Bee
    Because I cannot tell left from right, apparently.

    Ha!

    The Booth 1st Class Curtain Carriage is top left, the Wellington 1st Glass Carriage is top right.  I have it reversed above.

    Futher, on the lower row, the 2nd class carriage in question is on the left, not the right.

    You would think I could tell my left from right.  Doh!

    A pity I cannot edit these errors, perhaps a moderator could fix that.  If one of you lads wouldn't mind?  Thanks in advance

    Bee

    LMR: A relatively unknown 1st Class Carriage

    in General Discussion

    Posted · Edited by What About The Bee
    I thought a phrase needed a tweak!

    Hi LT&SR_NSE 

    For the front chaise compartment facing the engine crew, it must have been a phenomenal experience.  Imagine yourself in the front chaise, and as in the Walker image, the tender and locomotive directly in front of you.

    Watching the engineman at the controls and the fireman at work.  In an age when steam locomotives were the leading edge of technology, it must have been the equivalent of watching a pilot control the space shuttle.  A marvel before your eyes.

    And since this was first class, you would see the panorama of the railway rushing towards you, around you, with only a brief stop at Parkside.   Best seat in the house, the LMR probably could have charged extra!  

    You may very well be right about Tube Etiquette alleviating awkwardness.  Yet... there were no distractions.  It was impossible to read in a stagecoach. Several reporters marveled over being able to read on a railway carriage, because it was so novel an experience.  Staring at the floor for the 3 to 4 hours it took from Liverpool to Manchester by fast stagecoach would be dull.  Fast stagecoach required horse changes and the speed of the changeover was a competitive point amongst companies.  You could take the slower coach, the horses weren't driven so hard and the horses were not changed.  It was cheaper.  Just took a dogs age to finish the journey.  

    I suspect they chattered to each other to relieve boredom on stagecoaches.  Tube Etiquette may not have developed by the inception of the railway.  Of course, I could be dead wrong about this.  I claim no special knowledge about passenger behavior in the 1830s.

    Bee

    • Like 1

    Posting of images to gallery area

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Hello @96RAF

    I have made an attempt to do as you requested.  Yet it appears that we commoners have no authority to post edit image names.

    I do try to name the images before I upload them, but I am not always successful remembering to do that.  Likewise the credit and or copyright fields.  I try to set them.

    Bee

     

    LMR: A relatively unknown 1st Class Carriage

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    I would like to add a few observations about this particular first class carriage.

    1  The sentence structure in the Liverpool Albion, of 1829, reveals that this may actually be the first 1st class carriage to ride on the LMR.  "The first class vehicle..." implying that was only the one, or one type.

    2 Imagine how socially awkward this must have been.  With two of these in a row, you will be able to observe the person in the other carriage, but not engage in verbal communication.  My goodness!  Staring at someone for the entire journey would simply be awkward!

    3 The very short carriage (12ish feet) was consistent with the short waggons of the time.  It is entirely possible that a waggon carriage was pressed into service for this construction.  

    4 Transforming the chaise ends into full compartments added 6 fares for a modest increase in length.  Perhaps the heavy demand for seats and the increased rewards of 3 full compartments forced these out of service rapidly. 

    5 This carriage type is reported in the Liverpool Albion, in 1829.  The Wapping Tunnel opened just a few days later.  Perhaps this carriage was built to show to the hundreds, if not thousands, who toured the tunnel what was to come.

    Bee

    • Like 1

    LMR: The Booth 2nd Class Carriage

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    In 1830, Henry Booth authored An Account of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway.  In that authoritative tome, there is a plate showing rolling stock for the LMR.

    One thing must be properly understood.  Booth was an officer of the company and therefore, the portrayals are trustworthy.  Perhaps they are a bit stylized by the artist.  Perhaps just in process for the LMR at time of publication.  Perhaps already on the LMR. Yet as real as any portrayal can be.

    In the top right hand corner, is the Booth 1st class Curtain Carriage, of R30090.  We have discussed that, extensively.   Top center is the Lacy and Allen 1st class carriage¹.  Top left is the Wellington Glass Carriage, also a 1st class carriage. Lower row, right, is the topic of this post.  The lower row, center, a sheep wagon and the lower row, right, is for cattle.  

    large.textgram_1710286834.png.c26c5c8d74b21412556782366d60f19b.png

    There is no roof.  There are no curtains.  Indeed, there are no walls.  Just some bench seating, bent wrought iron hand rails and open backrests.  I will assert that this is a 2nd class carriage, based on the accomodations.  To the modern eye, this seems wildly unsafe, yet the 16 mph speed limit² may cause a rider to relax their grip.

    We have no written account of this carriage.  Further, the illustration does not appear elsewhere.  But the illustration is in an authoritative source.  The carriage must have existed.  Therefore, I have modeled it in FreeCAD.

    Shapeways states that the model can be printed for a reasonable sum.  In a previous post, I theorized that ganging a bunch of items results in less expense overall.  This has been confirmed, with a bunch submitted and in process.   3x cattle, 1x pig, 1x Ackermann 2nd no canopy and 1x Ackermann 2nd with canopy.  6 carriages/waggons are in process at Shapeways. 

    Unfortunately, this means that the Booth 2nd class carriage must wait for the next round.  Who knows what will go with it?! 🤷‍♂️

    Bee

    ¹ This will definitely be covered in a later post and is also certainly on my list of items to model.
    ² Measured by elapsed time.  It was expected that express trains of 1830 would take 2 hours to go from Manchester to Liverpool, or visa versa.  31 miles divided by 16 mph yields 1 hour 56 minutes.  There was a brief stop at Parkside to take on fuel and water.  Enginemen were fined for early arrival at destination, indicating excessive speed.

    • Like 1

    LMR: A relatively unknown 1st Class Carriage

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Hello ThreeLink

    First hand exploration is superior, no disagreement.  There is the minor impediment of the Atlantic Ocean holding me back!

    Here is one perfect example of use of the Ordnance Survey maps.  I found a tunnel through the railway embankment on the 1849 survey.  I then correlated it to the modern maps, and with a name, found a picture.

    large.GlazebrookTrail.png.732a4c9c6890289d87b047f42643ffaf.png

    And now you can visit it too!  A genuine piece of LMR infrastructure.

    Bee

    • Like 1

    Hornby and Peco DCC

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Hello Alan

    Track selection might just be orthogonal to DCC selection.  That is, one really doesn't affect the other.  Choosing Peco track or any other, does not affect your choice in DCC or vice versa.

    Think of it this way: the track rails are nothing more than two wires which bring the DCC signal to your decoders.  Does it really matter which brand the metal is? All metal track will conduct the signal. 

    Peco track itself has a good reputation.  You will do well with new.  As I recall, you were bidding on some older used track.  You will have a better experience with new track.  Less troubleshooting.  Fewer faults.  Better physical plant.  Better connectivity.

    Bee

    LMR: A relatively unknown 1st Class Carriage

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Why would they tear down a perfectly viable bridge?  The Water Street Bridge was standing in 1905, 75 years after construction.  To the modern eye, nothing is more common than these flat bridges with steel beams.  They are a well accepted solution.  Economical too.  So why was the Water Street Bridge removed?

    The answer is 'graceful degradation'.

    Steel and cast iron have differing material properties.  The modulus of elasticity defines the force required to bend an object.  As an object bends, it hits two important values, yield and ultimate yield. The relationship is the critical difference.

    When yield is close to ultimate yield, then the material breaks soon after it bends.  There is little elastic deformation. It is brittle.  Examples of this are glass.  Glass can bend, but not much before it shatters.

    When yield is well under ultimate yield, the material bends and bends, but does not break.  An example of this is copper, which can be folded back on itself, 180°.

    So back to the bridges.  Steel will bend and bend.  It degrades gracefully.  Yet cast iron is brittle, when it bends, it breaks.  

    So even though the physical form of the two bridges may be the same, the one of cast iron will be the one with catastrophic failure.  The steel bridge will deform under load, the cast iron bridge will collapse under load. 

    Eliminating cast iron bridges to replace them with steel was prudent.

    Bee

    • Like 1

    LMR: A relatively unknown 1st Class Carriage

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    @LY shunterThe infrastructure along the right of way of the LMR is fascinating to me. 

    One of the benefits of the Ordnance Survey maps is the ability to find that infrastructure in the modern world.  Some of it is gone, of course, unable to withstand the pressures of modern encroachment.  Yet, traces are still visible, some traces larger than others.  

    Thank you for the images.  

    Bee

     

    LMR: A relatively unknown 1st Class Carriage

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Thank you @gilbo2.  I sometimes worry that my mutterings are boring the crowd to tears.  It is nice to hear that some correspondents find these informational posts interesting.  

    Hornby Head of Development said it best: The period is filled with interesting and unique solutions to problems.   

    Nothing was resolved, everything was up for debate.  I read an interesting (to me anyway 🤷‍♂️) 1834 paper on the benefits of cylindrical wheels, as compared to the conical wheels that are now well accepted practice.  Under his certain class of restrictions, yes, but in general, no.  He spoke extensively of superelevation, so he was on the right track.  Ha!  

    I'm hopeful that Hornby finds the Era as lucrative as we find it fun.  That they continue to produce new and interesting models.  Fingers crossed!

    Bee

    • Like 1

    LMR: A relatively unknown 1st Class Carriage

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    The LMR was given permission to establish its station on the far side of the Irwell River from Liverpool, in Manchester instead of Salford.  Those in charge in Manchester were worried about the railway blocking two important causeways:  The Irwell River and Water Street. 

    The Irwell Bridge was a typical stone arch bridge.  Nothing beyond the ordinary.  Yet the Water Street Bridge was beyond ordinary.  This was a cast iron girder bridge!  17 feet clearance under the bridge.  4 tracks wide. 

    Crane provides us with a period view of the Bridge from the departures side.  The locomotive you see is headed towards Liverpool, with the building on the right the departing passenger terminal.  The Arrival-shed is on the opposite side of Water Street, hidden by perspective. 
    large.CraneWaterStreet.jpg.f2a6351fb72317bace9144b1d37816f7.jpg

    The Manchester Evening News published a photograph of the bridge on 26 Aug 1904.
    large.ManchesterEveningNews26Aug1904.jpg.0922298157276c332d073b9306ee78ad.jpg

     

    A 1905 photograph of the bridge.

    I normally include images, but this may actually still be under copyright, so you just get a reference.  Two are provided, in case one goes down.

    Best view of the image here
    https://www.lookandlearn.com/history-images/XH164964/Water-Street-Railway-Bridge-Manchester-built-1829

    Fairbain is the 1829 beam engineer
    https://prestwich.org.uk/history/people/fairbairn.html
    Image in article

    • Like 1

    R40436 L&MR, Royal Mail Coach - Coupling?

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Hi Gilbo 

    I have the Royal Mail carriage, albeit when it came in R3956.  In that version, I can assure you, it has the identical chassis as others in range.  The couplings are indeed finescale chains.  No NEM pocket.

    I pointed the website error out to Hornby some time ago, but apparently, it is still not fixed.

    Bee

     

    • Thanks 1

    LMR: A relatively unknown 1st Class Carriage

    in General Discussion

    Posted

    Liverpool Albion 27 July 1829

    "The first-class vehicle has a long body, the middle being like the body of a coach , and the two ends (the whole length being built in one) like two chaises."

    James Walker, An Accurate Description of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway, 1830.  

    "The most costly and elegant contain three apartments [sic], and resemble the body of a coach (in the middle) and two chaises, one at each end, -- the whole joined together."

    Liverpool Albion, 14 June 1830

    "...some have a central compartment which will contain six persons with seats before and behind, and two other compartments, one in front and one in the rear, each of them resembling a postchaise, with windows in front, and containing only three persons."

    What is a Chaise?  It is the name of a horse drawn carriage, an image of one follows.  Note the single bench with all passengers seated in one direction, and the enclosed front.
    large.ChaiseHorseDrawnCarriage.jpg.d89ba0d08dd00f03c5384793c797365f.jpg

    And now, the image of this carriage from the first edition of Walker!  
    large.Walker1830.png.3df0d591114ee1f61915a7f567dcd1db.png
    This image does not appear in subsequent editions. You will note the featured item was the Water Street Bridge.  This impressive bridge survived into the 1900s and we have photographic evidence of the LMR's feat of architecture

    The center compartment is the one we commonly see.  Yet if you examine this closely, you will see that it has two chaises, just as the written descriptions indicate!  The carriage is pulled by a Rocket Class locomotive, complete with a generation one, barrel tender.  The chassis for this carriage will be very short indeed, perhaps 12 feet or so, with the center compartment at 5 feet, the chaises at 3½ feet each.

    Hornby does know how to make a chaise ended carriage, the Queen Adelaide Royal Saloon (R40357 and R40437) has one, albeit with seating for only two, not three as above.  So maybe?

    Hint Hint Hornby!!

    Bee

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