What About The Bee
-
Posts
1,944 -
Joined
-
Days Won
1
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Blogs
Events
Articles
Downloads
Gallery
Store
Posts posted by What About The Bee
-
-
The Science Museum will offer us the date they think the Austen image was created.
https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co66065
1831 to 1835
Tom,
You make an excellent point. The drawing of Rocket in Mechanic Magazine, dated October 24th 1829, does not have a front buffer. I agree, it had to be developed at some time after that. I think we have a terminal date for that. 1830. Northumbrian, illustrated in Booth's book of 1830, has a front buffer. It is realistic to expect Planet, delivered AFTER Northumbrian by the same firm, to have a front buffer.
Please read my post on the previous page, with additional issues vis Planet's front buffer.
Bee
-
Hello Tom
As I wait for your images to be approved, I will offer this reference for your kind consideration.
In James Walker's text, we have this image, of a Planet class locomotive going under the Rainhill Bridge. https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015076002636&seq=8
Drawn and Engraved by Issac Shaw, known good observer.
Shaw draws a feature on the front buffer which may appear odd at first. There are two buffer beams, arranged vertically. If you now go and examine Armengaud, you will find he replicates this peculiar feature. While I agree that his drawings post date the period by a few years, Armengaud did not work in a vaccuum.
I think it reasonable to expect a feature to be present when we have good evidence for its existence. Shaw is nearly irrefutable.
Bee
Edit: Walker published in 1832. I do suppose it post dates the relevant Austen image.
-
The Examiner published notice of the opening of the Stockton and Darlington Railway. Issue No. 924 Monday, October 17th 1825.
You will find the notice here.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=hvd.32044089261531&seq=675
While the obvious plagarism of the consist is present, referencing the "elegant covered coach", we do have pertinent details about the passenger carriage, underscored.
"The coach in which the proprietors travelled is to ply the road from Stockton to Darlington". We have seen advertisements of this service in an earlier post in this thread.
"From the success", observed The Scotsman, "of this experiment at Darlington, and from what we have learned otherwise, we have no doubt that when the Edinburgh and Glasgow Railway is formed, STAGE-COACHES moved by loco-motive engines will commence plying at the very first..."
Stage-coaches. The very name of a particular vehicle in England the 1820s.
Bee
-
I have an update to this topic.
I have been reliant upon Longridge, of Bedlington Iron Works and his publication of 1832.
Yet in this publication of 1827, we find an article about Opening Day, from the Newcastle Courant, dated October 1st, 1825.
https://books.google.com/books?id=0qdVAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover
It appears that Longridge plagiarized this same newspaper article, with the exact same consist, with the "elegant covered coach" as previously discussed in this thread.
As the S&DR opened on 27 Sept 1825, and the article is dated 1 October 1825, I do not think it possible to find a more contemporary account! Yet the possibility does exist 😉
I would suggest that a contemporary newspaper reporter would know the names of basic things. Dial "English coach 1820s" into Google and observe the images returned. They look like a stagecoach. Lending support to the Longridge illustration, degrading support to the Smiles illustration of 1860ish.
Bee
-
Dawson presents the image in Locomotives of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway which is dated clearly 1832.
Yet, the Royal Mail carriage appears to have differences as compared to the image I have. That is, the Royal Mail carriage is portrayed as Ackermann.
Perhaps, just maybe, Austen corrected the image, and as a function of the correctIon, changed the date.
Bee
-
I know this is blurry.
"Drawn by Henry Austen March 1834"
Bee
-
Hello Tom
Would you check your print that the Royal Mail carriage image came from? My copy of that, albeit blurry in the lower left corner, seems to indicate 1834.
I think is says "Henry Austen March 1834". The resolution on your image appears to be much better than mine. Thank you.
I've always been intrigued by the "Oxen Wagon" No. 4 on the Goods consist by Austen. It seems to show full divisions across the wagon, but nothing on the sides. The oxen appear tethered, maybe by nose, possibly by halter. What is to prevent a terrified, powerful draft animal, such as oxen, from leaping to their demise? A ring in his nose?
Bee
Edit: NRM asset number 01A87DB3, who claim 1832 for a date. There is no possibility that the date ends in a 2 on the image.
-
Information is remarkably thin on Crane. William Crane, of Chester, was active between ~1829 to ~1840. Died 1843, giving a terminal date to any W. Crane image. He has other non railway works which demonstrate his artistic capability.
As to Phoenix, Rocket Class, LMR6. Participated in Opening Day ceremony, directed by R. Stephenson. Engineman John Wakefield. Two brakemen listed, James Wood and Hugh Greenshields. Two is consistent with practice as I understand it. A brakeman on the carriage immediately behind the tender, who passes commands from the engineman to the brakeman on the last carriage. Commands like: release brake, set brake, etc.
According to RGH Thomas, the Queen Adelaide curtain carriage (not to be confused with Saloon No.2) was converted from curtain to all glass in 1832. Dawson also confirms.
I would suggest the image is circa 1835, not later. Phoenix, with a type 1 tender (barrel) and 0-2-2 configuration would have been quite outdated by then, similar to the curtain carriage, outdated.
Bee
-
Hello M*ck [the Hornby word filter will not permit me to use your name. My apologies for that]
Solving the riddle of the type of material would be fantastic.
We know it must be durable to withstand the drubbing it would get, flapping furiously due to the motion of the train. It needs to be adjustable, yet somehow not flap in passenger faces.
The curtain also appears in center glass, end curtain carriages, known first class. Since it is first class, we must assume some degree of class consciousness. Mean forms, like sailcloth, as it would be beneath the hoity-toity first class passengers.
Weather resistance would be limited to rain, as I do not think these carriages were used in cool or cold weather. A sodden curtain however, would be very unappealing, so the ability to shed water, or dry quickly would be valued.
The fabric type is a conundrum!
It is my belief that these carriages faded away, as they offered little utility to the LMR except during the warm summer months. Stored the remainder of the year.
The center glass, end curtain carriages were swiftly converted over. There is no reason to believe these escaped that order.
Bee
-
I have a sweet pug, who we refer to as "The Old Lady". I understand completely. Best wishes to Jasmine, I hope she pulls through.
Bee
-
Thank you Tom. I included the print in this discussion to lend credulity to the concept that the Booth curtain carriage is a first class carriage, not second as Hornby have stated.
Now an interesting point you raise is of the Royal Mail Carriage in the consist. Royal Mail, or 4 Inside fares were only listed for First Class trains by Walker. You could purchase a ticket for a glass carriage on a second class train, but not 4 inside / Royal Mail.
First Class Train fares = 6 inside or 4 inside. Essentially Express.
Second Class Train fares = Glass Carriages (6 inside) or Open Carriages. The Local Train.
The inclusion of Royal Mail denotes the consist as a First Class Train. And what do I see there? The Booth Carriage!
This was a detail I had not previously known, for which I thank you.
Now let me turn to the last carriage in consist, furthest from the locomotive. As you show, it is a center glass, end curtain carriage. Much like the one illustrated by Crane
It would have to be fairly warm before sitting outside would be attractive to a first class passenger. Nothing like a stiff breeze to create windchill.
Thus, the carriage would be used primarily in the summer. We know the last carriage to be a Glass Carriage, albeit with curtain compartments.
This is yet another reason why I categorize the Booth Carriage as a first class carriage. It essentially extends the concept of the summer compartment to the center compartment. Instead of just the ends, it is all three.
Bee
I have a very annoying habit of categorizing images in differing ways. Sometimes by publisher, sometimes by artist. For example, I refer to the Olive Mount print discussed as a Walker print, even though it is by Shaw, a known good observer. I know the 3 Ackermann long prints, dated on the prints 1831, 1833 and 1834, are by Shaw. My apologies for this odd categorization. It is an artifact of my research and does not necessarily conform to methods by others.
-
Tom,
Its actually more than that. The axle for the oscillating levers on the footplate is drawn in completely the wrong place by Austen. He has it going through the firebox, when in fact that axle must be behind the firebox.
These types of discrepancies have caused me to discount Austen.
Bee
-
Hello Tom
I claim neither authority nor infallibility. It is entirely possible I am wrong about Henry Austen.
Once I examined his imagery vis the Armengaud mechanical drawings, I found Austen wanting.
Perhaps you would share some of the imagery you are referring to? Take note that the moderators here must approve every image, and that may take a bit of time.
I'd be happy to hear more of your views on Austen.
Thank you
Bee
-
Tom
As to Henry Austen, I find most of his depictions to be derivative of others. That is, he was not a first hand observer, he essentially draws a new scene from other images. Look at his depiction of Planet, for example. Where did the front buffer go? His consist images are a rehash of Ackermann. So I do not anguish over second hand interpretations, even if they are period depictions. Similar to Reynolds and Freeling, Austen's images are derivative.
Now when it comes to the Vignoles image, it is in perfect side elevation. Meaning it is not a natural depiction, it would be impossible for Vignoles to ever see the consist like that in real life, where everything is in 3 dimensions, not 2. Inferring carriage width may be possible, but with the unnatural depiction, uncertain. I am still researching the personal carriage wagons and the particular carriages depicted on them. I am not prepared to disclose my uncertain research at this time.
Finally, the issue of Novelty running on St. Helens and Runcorn, in my view, is indisputable. Whilst I cannot vouch for the authority of this page, note the statement of disposition of Novelty after the Rainhill Trials.
https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/novelty-0-2-2wt-st-helen-runcorn-gap-railway/
So is the image an actual depiction, like a photograph, of the consist? No, I think it representative in nature. It shows a locomotive known to be on the railway, as well as carriages and wagons that were on the railway. In perfect side elevation, as a way for Vignoles to promote the railway to others.
Bee
-
Hello Tom
Welcome Aboard!
I will defer to the Science Museum Group for the attribution of the image. Please inspect the record for the named artist
Bee
-
Hello 81F
While I can think of a few reasons, I would like to hear yours if I might.
In the second image, the boiler is cut away, to show the internals. Would you mind expanding on that?
You mention that the body needs lowering. Yet it appears that the tender fall plate is reasonably matched in the first image. Would you mind expanding on that as well?
I hope to learn a few tricks, so as to help me with OO Planet. You are ahead of me
Bee
-
Very nice train indeed Alberto.
May I ask why you have turned off comments in YouTube for this video? I see nothing controversial.
Bee
-
There are some bits of evidence which may help our understanding.
The first is the conservative nature of the LMR. During the first years, there was quite a bit of experimentation. But even as late as the Victoria Station opening at Hunt Bank in 1845, there were issues in interchange of carriages, because the LMR turntables were too small to turn Manchester and Leeds rolling stock. What you see for livestock transportation in 1831-34 is almost assuredly what you will see in 1848.
With one very notable exception. Sheep wagons were scrapped in 1839 as worn out, unserviceable. Sheep were encouraged to use the same wagons we see pig and cattle in.
The coupling system of freight and livestock would have been slow to adapt to the 1836 Booth patent. That was designed for passenger comfort. A dumb buffer system with chains means individual wagons can be adjusted along the rails without moving adjacent wagons. So align livestock wagons to the chutes by hand.
Would that be possible? Yes. Early weight limits were 4 tons. With a rolling coefficient of friction as poor as 0.01, the force to move the loaded wagon is only 80 pounds of thrust. Modern rolling CoF is an order of magnitude smaller, making the thrust an astonishing 8 pounds!!
I think your idea of blocking off pig escape quite relevant. I would take that one step more. There is no need to use all the chutes at any one time. Pick the single chute that best aligns with the opening to the livestock wagon.
How do I think this worked? The cattle and pig wagons illustrated by Ackermann (and others) do not show doors. But an entire side could be lifted out of the bolsters and then moved along the wagon. So the locomotive moved the livestock wagon into general location. The workers lift and move the slat side, creating a small opening in the corner of the wagon. They pick the chute that most closely aligns to that corner. Maybe they adjust the wagon to the chute, because the drag chains permit this. The single chute is opened and the animals directed through.
A door system could certainly be present, on the chute side. Makes perfect sense.
You theorized that the livestock station was for local consumption. Agreed, no issues. Manchester must be fed. I would expect that there would be an abattoir nearby.
As to the cattle yard, the absence of pens does not bother me. A farm down the road from me occasionally keeps cattle in paddock. They do not try to escape, but do like to wander about inside the paddock. The cattle yard on the map is smaller compared to the paddocks.
Bee
-
I have heard back from Hornby. A reasonably fast response, in just days.
In the very first post in this thread, I wrote: "The front buffer beam shows the rich appointment as it is carved and pin striped. That will be a difficult challenge for Hornby."
Well, exactly that was the difference.
Hornby replied: "I’m afraid we have production parameters that will not allow us to put the lining around the buffers stocks. Also the very ends of the chassis we have had to simplify the lining to make it possible to mass produce."
So am I terribly fussed over this? Not really. I found a difference because I went looking for one. If I had not been examining the model in fine detail, I would never have noticed it. My order stands. Still holding steady at Spring 24
Bee
-
Doesn't Gromit the dog span two carriages? Unless you plan on a perfectly straight end to end layout, that may prove troublesome.
Bee
-
Hello Michael
Welcome Aboard!
Excellent question. I have never seen them available or sold separately.
customerservices.uk@hornby.com
Please write to customer services for this item. When you find out anything, please let me know. I have not lost any, but it is simple to do. I would like to purchase spares ahead of time!!
Bee
-
Hi Simon
Thank you for your reply.
From Wood, Practical Treatise .. we have the width of an early flatbed. 2.3 meters / 7 feet 6 inches. I will suggest that flatbed wagons were converted to livestock wagons in actual practice. If we assume equal clearances on either side, then the side of the livestock wagons were appropriately 3" / 7.5 cm from the retaining wall. Your dimension of 8 feet makes perfect sense.
Wood shows the length of that wagon at 3.15 m / 10 feet 4 inches. How does that align with the length of the pig chutes along the track?
About the cattle yard. The opening to Oldfield Road suggests it is just one yard, no pens required. Of course, interpreting fine details is tricky. I note that the retaining wall goes the length of the rail spur. An earthen ramp could be anywhere along that.
Bee
-
Those of us waiting for Hornby carriage pack R40357 have been looking to see a Hornby render of Queen Adelaide's Saloon, instead of a photograph of the prototype. That still hasn't occurred
Yet we do have an update, albeit in R40437, wherein Hornby will offer Queen Adelaide's Saloon as a single carriage. It appears to be a CAD render, not a sample, yet I will not expire on that hill 🙂
I grabbed the image and, placing them ever so carefully using my photo edit tools, compared detail after detail. The Hornby render vs the image in the postcard above. Why the postcard? It offers a reasonably good side elevation. Just like the Hornby render.
So here is that comparison
Now nearly every detail is letter perfect. It looks absolutely fantastic from my point of view. I did detect a small difference, but you would have to look really, really hard to see it. I've written to Hornby, requesting clarification. When that comes, I will update.
Until then, feast your eyes!
Bee
-
The battery holder holds a CR2032 battery. The CR2032 battery has a voltage of 3 volts and a capacity of up to 240mAh, manufactuer dependent. Almost any 3 volt transformer you purchase will supply that. Probably have to look long and hard to find one that could not.
I think of your camper as a static building. Just power it from the wall. No need to ever fiddle with batteries again.
Bee
Henry Booth and the new Hornby LMR carriage
in General Discussion
Posted
Hi LT&SR_NSE
It is a curiosity of course. Why spend money for a carriage used at best 4 months of the year?
It was the very earliest of days of the LMR and experimentation was the order of the day. There was no text, no guidebook. It was all ad hoc.
Compare these curtain carriages, with full end plates, a roof and side curtains, to the contemporary LMR outside passengers in 2nd class. No end plates. No roof. No curtains. All year round. Brrrr.
Bee