What About The Bee
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Posts posted by What About The Bee
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My procrastination is deliberate. It permits me more time to analyze without commitment. What cattle to select for this project has been a difficult problem. In thinking of the problem, I remembered the Rule of Three.
The Rule of Three
You will often encounter this phrase in old books. It is simply another name for a ratio applied to one value to obtain another.
I will use the Rule of Three to find a solution for the cattle height, the height of the slat rail and etc.
I will begin with the Ackermann long aquatints. These show various consists. Passenger First, Passenger Second, Freight and Livestock. Each consist is shown with a locomotive, sitting on rail. The top of the rail, as it turns out, is a beautiful reference for analysis.
I clipped out a cattle wagon and a first class glass carriage and, using the foreground rail as a reference, aligned them side by side.
The first rule of three is between arrows 1 and 2 (pink). The number of pixels in the image to the heights shown provide the ratio. The height of the Hornby Glass Carriage provides the known value, 34.9 mm, measured. This will provide us with the height of the slat over the top of the rail.
72 pixels / 88 pixels × 34.9 mm = 28.55 mm
The height of the Hornby Chassis, 3 blue, above the rail is also known. It is 15.4 mm. The Hornby Chassis is used for all Hornby LMR rolling stock. Deducting the height of the chassis from the height of the slat side provides us with the height of the superstructure on the cattle wagon. 28.55 mm - 15.4 mm = 13.15 mm. [Result 1 = 13.15mm]
Yellow arrow 4 is the height of the super structure. The superstructure includes the floor on the Chassis and the Slat side.
The Rule of Three will provide the height of the slat side above the chassis compared to the height of the shoulder of the cattle above the chassis. Yellow 4 pixels divided by green 5 pixels. This provides us with the ratio of 0.82. That is, the height of the slat side is 82% the height of the cattle. But here, I cannot have an arbitrary bovine, I must use a commercial product. I will trial Langley F68A. Langley F68A shoulder height is 16mm, yellow 8.
We must be careful. There is a floor there. The cattle stand on the floor, not the chassis. The Hornby floor is 0.84mm, 7 orange. Rearranging terms in the Rule of Three by Algebra, I obtain (0.82 × height cattle) + thickness floor = 0.82 × 16 mm + 0.84 mm = 13.96 mm. [Result 2 = 13.96 mm]
At last I have a useful check. If I use Langley F68A, then the height of the slat side over the chassis(result 2) is 13.96 mm. If I use the Hornby Glass Carriage, then the height of the slat side over the chassis (result 1) is 13.15 mm. Those results are in reasonable agreement! Not precise, but close!
Langley models are advertised as metal. Perhaps some judicious sanding on the hooves will shorten the cattle, shortening result 2, bringing it closer to result 1.
As a final check, what is the shoulder height of the cattle above the rail if I use Langley F68A, green 6. This is arithmetic. Hornby Chassis + thickness Floor + height of cattle = 15.4 mm + 0.84 mm + 16 mm = 32.24 mm. The pixel height of the glass carriage above rail divided by the pixel height of the shoulder of the cattle above rail is a ratio of 1.11. Multiply 32.24 mm by the ratio 1.11 yields 35.91 mm. Well glory be, that is the height of Hornby's glass carriage.
Langley F68A it shall be.
Bee
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Thank you 81F, for the first hand confirmation. Appreciated!
Bee
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Hi Sidozy
Welcome to the forum.
Flying Scotsman was a passenger locomotive. A possible idea is a train station. Ticket booths, pedestrian bridges, platforms and lots of people. Maybe even a newspaper stand.
Remember to keep your layout goals within reason. We all want a layout like Charlie's Chadwick Model Railway or Oscar Paisley (both on youTube), but those are thousands upon thousands of pounds and decades of experience.
Start with a loop and a passenger station. Let your imagination guide you forward.
Have fun!!
Bee
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If we are to keep to the iconography, then Rudolph must lead the conveyance.
The practice of a white light forward and a red light to the rear extends all the way back to the Liverpool and Manchester Railway [Signals and Regulations, rules 2 and 3].
This sets up a conflict between long established rules and popular iconography around a beloved holiday. Yet Santa predates the railway industry by more than a millenia, given his fourth century origins.
This is Santa, and he determines the rules that apply to his conveyance. If Santa wants Rudolph to guide his train, who is the Railway Safety and Standards Board to disagree. They have no power over Santa. They cannot enforce compliance.
The rules of precedence will apply. Rudolph may guide the conveyance, even with his red nose.
Bee
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Like the title says...
Note the numbers of platform workers!
Bee
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Hi M
The fine print near the barcode identifies the product code as R30106. The sticker shows R30106 as well.
Those are the correct numbers.
I will suggest that the seller actually has this item.
Bee
Edit: well, the box anyway! 🙂
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Hi Sam
A good house is built upon a firm foundation. The equivalent for a model railway is the baseboard. You mentioned your Dad was a builder, surely he will understand.
By all means, size the baseboard to the layout. The only cautionary note would be to not go too large at first.
Start small and accomplish the basics. After the baseboard, a firm level, flat track is a great start. Maybe an operable point.
But most of all, have fun!!
Bee
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I had a careful look at the listing and the seller.
Of the 12 images in the listing, only the first two are novel, the remaining 10 are lifted directly from Hornby's pages. The first two show a box, but note the background. Carpet and cardboard are definitely not a Hornby standard. The implication is that the seller has the box [or has gone to extraordinary expense to mock up a Hornby look alike].
The seller has fairly good marks. Been around for 6+ years. Lots of positive feedback, with no negatives and only 1 neutral. Someone didn't get something, so the money was refunded. That's reasonable. If you are really interested, I have found that asking a question of the seller weeds out all the scammers, they do not respond.
The last thing I note is the price. It is 99p less than Hornby's price!! That is indeed odd for an eBay seller. Mostly, they try to profit from transaction. Further, the postage is free.
From all this, I conclude that the seller has somehow managed to obtain one. How? Why? I cannot say, but this has all the hallmarks of a valid listing.
If 99p and free postage is the difference on a £362 item, sure, go for it. If it were me, I'd wait on Hornby. If the seller has one, soon you will too.
Bee
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Hello 81F
Is it true that that Rapido version of Lion, aka Titfield Thunderbolt, has the adapter to Hornby's fine scale chain coupling?
I was in your regime of coupling changes with the older Hornby Triang LMR rolling stock and with the Accurascale Chaldrons.
Bee
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Please do look up Rudolph, 96RAF. Rudolph's association with Montgomery Ward. The Johnny Marks song and the Rankin and Bass animation based on it. You may find a correlation betwixt those and national origin.
Santa was never claimed.
Bee
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Rudolph was my answer from minute #1. Yet I wondered if Rudolph had entered the British Pantheon of Christmas Characters. So I held off, waiting to see if American Christmas Characters had managed to leap the Atlantic.
Rudolph with your nose so bright is the obvious and very, very correct answer.
Bee
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Hi Sam 👋
The smile on his face says it all! Well done Sam.
Atom, I think that set comes without a power supply. There was a lot of chatter about DC power supplies earlier in the thread.
Bee
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SWMBO has promised her traditional FIGGY PUDDING, complete with hard sauce.
Mmmmm delicious!
Bee
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Live link
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Mikey,
Tiger is a reasonably good representation of a goods locomotive in the later LMR period.
The "coal wagons" it comes with are actually utility wagons used at the Rainhill Trials, in the construction of the railway and for maintenance of way ballast trains. The marketing dept at Hornby just named these little wagons the wrong thing. Coal was transported, but mostly in chaldrons. The collieries provided their own locomotives and rolling stock (chaldrons), paying a fee for use of the rails. There was a brief period during which the LMR offered to transport coal in intermodal wagons, but the collieries weren't having it.
Bee
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Hiya Mikey
Ha!
Not the Longmoor Military Railway.
Liverpool and Manchester Railway!
Or, per their own acronym LPMRW (Liver Pool Manchester Rail Way), as shown on their tarpaulins.
Bee
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Since there appears to be some confusion about my remarks, I will assume I communicated poorly.
When I said "If I was in this position, I would simply get a more powerful controller. Determine your stall current. Size your controller from that." I was attempting to say..."the controller might need more grunt" and that the new controller might need a few more amps.
I did not indicate that the stall current would be indicative of a change in magnetic field. Yet it would!
When the magnetic field of a motor is changed, the Kt or torque constant of the motor is changed. That is, there is a direct relationship between the current input and the torque output. You may find the Kt of most commercial rotary motors. For linear motors, the Kt is linear thrust per unit of current.
Now let us examine how stall current is determined. We measure the resistance of the motor and the current when the motor just begins to move and calculate the stall current. For motor manufacturers, this is followed by a destructive test to remove uncertainty, but this is unnecessary for our purposes.
The motor will just begin to move when the stiction and friction are overcome by the torque. The torque produced is a function of the Kt. Voila! The stall current will be indicative of a changed magnetic field.
(Old stall current) / (new stall current) not = 1
I do hope this clarifies my remarks.
Bee
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Postscript for Simon. A motor spun by external means is a generator. It generates electricity as a function of its spin. The polarity of the voltage generated is inverse to the voltage required to make the motor spin. That is, as the motor spins under voltage, the motor generates an opposing voltage which must be overcome by the amplifier in your controller.
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Hello 81F
Here is my understanding.
The resistance of a motor is a function of the windings. The current a motor draws is a function of that resistance and the voltage.
Now the interesting bit is the back emf. This is the voltage generated by the motor as the windings pass through the magnetic field. There is a relationship between the back emf, the velocity of rotation and the strength of the magnetic field.
As the motor generates back emf, it works in opposition to the applied voltage. As such, it changes the voltage to the motor itself.
With the change in voltage, comes a change in current. This is because resistance remains constant, but the change in voltage means change in current.
You asked "Will this reduce my current?"
Answer: as the back emf is a function of magnetic field strength, the correct answer is "I dunno". How did you change the magnetic field? Just changing to a different magnet type does not tell us if the field increases or decreases.
The geometry of the rotor and stator is inverse square related. So you may change to magnet that has a higher field strength, in general, but the specific geometry of the magnet coil relationship may be that the magnetic field is actually reduced. Or increased. It is the gap between the coils (and laminations) to the magnets which most directly affect the magnetic field.
If I was in this position, I would simply get a more powerful controller. Determine your stall current. Size your controller from that.
Bee
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I'm not sure if similar exists for 00, but for my N gauge layouts I download and print off full size paper templates of the Peco pointwork and lay them out to work out a track plan. Once the plan is finalised I buy the trackwork needed.
Yes, full size paper templates do exist for OO. I've found them handy for determining polarity of specific rails in complex points like double slips, by coloring individual rails in specific colors. Most informative (for me anyway).
What I find interesting about the comment, in general, is that the process you describe is exactly that of track planning software. You take templates of the pointwork and work out a track plan. Specific radii, precise lengths and etc are laid into the baseboard you define. Then you buy the trackwork.
The track planning software offers up precision not possible with pieces of paper, yet in the end, it is the same process.
Bee
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Hi Aussie Fred
"Perfect is the enemy of good" - Voltaire
The issue with using smaller cattle is that the slat sides of the livestock wagon are simply too tall.
In analysis of the cattle in the imagery, I determined that the slat side is between 80% to 84% of the height of the cattle.
Specifically, individual animals in the foreground permit observation of the hoof and shoulder. The slat side is immediately in front of that animal. By examining pixel addresses, I can determine a ratio.
Given the shoulder height of the cattle, I can determine the height of the rail.
"So far, so good" - Oliver Hardy
The problem of adjusting the rail heights on the slat sides is simply the available room. The bolsters take up a considerable portion, with four rails and three spaces taking up the remainder. I am caught in my own web!!
I have just been informed that https://www.wwscenics.com/product/oo-gauge-hand-sculpted-cows/ are 17mm from hoof to shoulder. Inverting the scale, I obtain 51", still 3" short of a nominal cow.
"Why are there no OO scaled cows?"
Bee
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I, for one, hope that Mallard's record remains standing.
When Mallard set the record, steam power was the prime mover. The purpose was to put into the public's mind that this or that railway system was the fastest. If you wanted to get to your destination fastest, you took XYZ railways. Breaking the record had reason and purpose.
Setting a new record for a steam powered locomotive now is solely to break the record, it has no purpose. Kind of like breaking the land speed record for a piston powered car (463mph) when ThrustSSC achieved 762 mph. Super nice that a piston powered car can go that fast, but irrelevant.
The Japanese have the record for any train at 374.6 mph. Steam will not break this record. Steam is, for the most part, not even utilized now, being primarily a heritage system.
Mallard did it when it counted. Leave it there.
Bee
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Hi SeaCommander
Permit me to say what a fantastic job you have done. The DP1 looks very nice indeed and the transfers on the nose are decidedly awesome
Well done!
Bee
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Hornby Customer Care has confirmed the height of the R7121 Cows at 1.3 cm (13 mm).
A quick bit of maths converts this to a cow 39" tall. For those who have actually encountered a cow or bull in real life, you will know this is a ridiculously short animal. Perhaps a calf, or maybe for forced perspective, but for a cattle load on the LMR, they are entirely too diminutive.
I have been looking at an eBay seller, who offers HO cows. Picking the two animals which indicate shoulder height (not tail, head, horns, etc), I see 16mm and 16.8 mm.
When inverse scaled back to prototype via HO, they are 54" and 58" tall at the shoulder, which is correct. When scaled at OO, they scale to 48" and 50½", a pinch on the short side.
Prepainted, direct from China. I think these will do. Launch the human figures directly into the bin.
Bee
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Steven
"DCC ready" is a buzz phrase for "works on analogue" or DC.
It can be converted to DCC, but is not DCC
Bee
I need layout help.
in General Discussion
Posted
Hi Ptolemy
As Ellocoloco mentioned, adding to your board, as shown here in pink, permits room for a Radius 2 180° turn, yellow arrow. It expands into a dead space so your Dad may be more amenable to the idea.
Bee