What About The Bee
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Posts posted by What About The Bee
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If I could offer Mr Grindlay at Model Master any advice, it would be this:
Make it your objective to fulfill any outstanding order as quickly as possible. Work as hard as you can, for as many hours as you can, non-stop, until every single blessed order is sent. Go flat out. Bring in help if you must. Get this behind you.
Your offer, Mr Grindlay, of ½ price is tempting, but there is no indication of backlog. If we place an order now, and pay for it now, when can we expect to see it? 4 months, 6 months or a year from now?
Mr Grindlay, you cannot possibly sell your business for another 3 years or so, until your accounts are brought back to a stable business. Attempting to sell now, with the business in shambles, will result in a fire sale.
Finally, with every order sent, apologize. May I suggest you include a 50% coupon in every shipment, the terms of your current sale, by way of apology and making things right.
Good luck Mr Grindlay, you have a difficult road ahead.
Bee
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Hi Alberto
I see that Jasmine has a starring role in your intro. Big supporter of this!!
Bee
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Hello Tony
I gave your question a bit of thought before answering. Of necessity, some of my answer will be opinion based. I will take care to note that as we go.
Most images of the LMR are from the early days, during the period of broad experimentation. We have Rocket, Planet, Experiment and Patentee. Soaring architectural works like the Sankey Viaduct, completed before opening day in 1831. By about 1838, however, the experimental period had ended. Rail type was settled. Engine types were either 2-2-2 or 0-4-2, of the Bird class. The Edge Hill Engine works took over all engine production. The public excitement over railways had moved on to other architectural wonders, other exciting railway developments. The public deliriously underwent Railway Mania. Other railways, other pictures, other architecture. One very notable image of the late period of the LMR is the image of Victoria Station from 1844. Similarly the soaring Lime Street Station in Liverpool, both were great architectural works.
The GWR was established in 1838. Brunel acquired engines from Robert Stephenson & Co, "North Star" springs to mind.
Now my opinion is that there is little to no overlap of depictions of the two railways. There are very few images of the LMR, post 1838. The GWR is all post 1838. Whilst it is possible that an artist who drew images of the LMR went on to create images of the GWR, this does not align with the supposition that imagery of the GWR affected LMR imagery. So my opinion is no, depictions of the GWR did not influence depictions of the LMR.
I do stand ready to be corrected. I am not infallible, in fact, far from it.
Bee
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Hello Steve
You may search the UK web pages of eBay for completed items. Search for "Hornby R9098" and then "filter" for completed items. This provides you with a list of actual sales.
I did this and found 4 completed items. The average price is roughly in the £300s, depending upon how you treat the case where the seller accepted a lower offer than his asking price. The highest price? £427. The lowest? £257.
I would suggest that this price is driven by those who wish all the Hornby Thomas range.
Bee
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There is a subtlety in fare structure and consists which may confuse the casual observer of the LMR.
1st Class Trains
Have only '4 inside' (Royal Mail) and '6 inside' carriages. 6 inside are the yellow, windowed carriages. The number refers to the number of passengers per cabin.
Blue 2nd class carriages were not on 1st class trains. 1st class trains stopped only at Park Side for water and fuel.
In modern parlance, these would be considered Express Trains.
2nd Class Trains
Did offer 6 inside carriages, but are referred to as 'glass carriages' in the fare structure. 4 inside (Royal Mail) was not available. Blue 2nd class carriages were referred to as 'open carriages'.
In modern parlance, these would be considered Local Trains.
It was possible, therefore, to ride in a 1st class, 6 inside, glass carriage on a 2nd class train. Conversely, you could never ride in an open 2nd class carriage on a 1st class train.
Further Confusion
For the well to do, service was available for your personal horse drawn carriage. A roll on, roll off service on specially constructed flatbed. Not the standard flatbed. These are depicted with the passengers traveling in their horse drawn carriage, with the train underway. The fare, just for the carriage, was 20 shillings for 4 wheeled and 15 shillings for 2 wheeled personal carriages. Additional fees for the horses.
Bee
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Hello Brew Man
Good catch. Liverpool is the western end of the line. Fixing that! No idea why I flipped them over.
Tony,
Not only does it appear that the gauges switch but the sizes of the locomotives grow and shrink. Some artists did seem to have an issue with proportions when it came to unfamiliar mechanisms
Bee
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The previous images represent some of the grand structures on the LMR.
Grandest Structures
There are two which would dwarf all but the grandest of layouts.
One is the Lime Street Station in Liverpool. Established in 1836 to handle passenger traffic when it became evident that the Crown Street Station was inadequate.
The other is Victoria Station in Manchester, when it became clear that the Liverpool Road Station was inadequate. You may find an image of Victoria Station under "Railway Oddities". To put it in perspective, a scale Victoria Station in OO would be 11 feet long.
Smaller Structures
Perhaps a smaller structure would be more suitable for your layout, Robert. The predominant traffic was betwixt Liverpool and Manchester, but 'short fares' were also available. These meant you could get off or on at intermediate steps. Second Class consists were permitted the intermediate stops, First Class consists only stopped at Park Side for re-watering. We have an image of Park Side
We also have a wonderful image by Shaw, a known good observer of one of these smaller stops.
Note the flag pole at the station. A flag was elevated at the station to alert the enginemen that a passenger was to board. No flag meant no stopping. To be clear, there was no schedule at intermediate stops. The only schedule was the departure time from either Liverpool or Manchester. Arrival time was never published, particularly so for Second Class consists.
You may observe the guard in the foreground and the level crossing gates he was responsible for. Clearly, this is a very simple affair.
Newton Bridge was a slightly larger station. This viaduct remains standing to this very day (Mill Lane Viaduct, Newton le Willows) Fare from Liverpool to Newton Bridge, first class, was 3 shillings.
There are other major features of the LMR, but I am not certain you would want them on your layout. The Olive Mount cutting was up to 70 feet deep, and had just enough clearance for double track, the rails pinned directly to bedrock. That puts your locomotive and rolling stock in the bottom of a narrow canyon.
Chat Moss was a bog. Pretty desolate, not much visual interest.
If you will kindly let me know where your fancy takes you Robert, I would be happy to present you with further images.
Bee
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Congratulations JJ. Anything over 10K is very impressive
Bee
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The Bridgewater Foundry was in Patricroft, near Manchester. The Foundry specialized in the production of heavy machinery and locomotives. While it is not shown in the image, it is nearly certain that a siding went to the foundry itself, if only to get locomotives out.
The Bridgewater Canal was nearby, as was the Liverpool and Manchester railway. In this scene, the LMR crosses the Canal. The bridge itself consists of two asymmetric arches, one for the canal, another for the road beside it.
Of the LMR consists, I observe a passenger consist on the bridge itself. Given the presence of the Royal Mail carriage (last carriage, with guard), I would categorize this as a first class train. The other is luggage (freight), flat cars with tarpaulin. These would be stamped LPM RW, with LPM over RW, denoting Liver Pool Manchester Rail Way.
This scene offers a lot of visual interest, a water feature, a bridge with two arches, canal boats, a massive factory, and a double track mainline. We can see worker housing in the background.
Bee
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Robert
The iconic LMR bridge is the skew bridge at Rainhill.
This bridge was at a significant angle to the rail. Constructed by the LMR. Further, the Rainhill Level is dead flat. Also the location of the Rainhill Trials.
Another iconic LMR bridge is the Sankey Viaduct.
Both are still standing today!
Bee
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Hello Robert
Wapping Tunnel and its stationary engine were at the western¹ end of the line. Under Liverpool.
In so far as the eastern² end of the line, near Manchester, an excellent reference is Liverpool Road Station, Manchester by Fitzgerald. The track plan at the station is in that, along with the fiftyish turntables at the station.
There really isn't an authoritative track plan, but Ordnance Surveys do exist. Stephenson's survey is preserved, as are period images. 13 Colored Views of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway will give you a sense of appearances.
Bee
¹&² I had these switched. Thanks for the correction Brew Man
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I've been waiting for an item I paid for in June 2022. I last contacted the shop on 1 November this year and there is still some kerfuffle. I will be very unlikely to purchase from them in the future. No names, please!
As far as status, I think Rapido does an excellent job.
https://rapidotrains.co.uk/delivery-schedule/
Simmo009, when you speak with Hornby, please show them that page!
Bee
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Flange-less wheels were a Robert Stephenson invention! The main worry with Planet, LMR 9, was the lateral force that flanged wheels placed on crank axles.
Patentee, LMR 33, was a 2-2-2. The center driving wheels were, as usual, on cranked axles. To eliminate the lateral forces created on cranked axles, Stephenson eliminated the flange. No flange means no lateral force. This was explicitly stated by Stephenson as a patent criteria. The front and rear axles contained flanged wheels, per the patent, and the driving wheels with the crank axle did not.
Bee
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Hello Roger
Oscar Paisley just did a video which features Hornby Dublo wagons by Meccano. In the video he removes the wheel hangers.
Skip to about 20:40 for the procedure.
Alternatively, sit back and observe a great layout!
Bee
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Andrew
Your boys are NOT, repeat NOT, to blame.
Motors are fairly inexpensive and relatively easy to replace, model dependent.
Bee
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Hi John
This belongs in the category of "Wishlists", as you wish Hornby would produce Grosvenor. There is a page dedicated to that, wherein Hornby has requested this type of information.
Bee
Alternatively, one of the mods might move this to the pinned thread in Wishlists.
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"4 to 6 hours per day, for 6 weeks"
The maths bring us to:
168 hours to 252 hours of running time.
Given that the life expectancy of a modern can-type motor is ~150 hours of running time, the recommended locomotive should have 1) metal axles and bearings and 2) an easily replaceable motor.
Alternatively, the entire locomotive should be inexpensive enough to replace every year.
Bee
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Three Link: I claim no special knowledge of how this situation came to be. My interest fundamentally ends after 1845. Your explanation certainly makes sense. Forcing a passenger to choose between 3rd (oh the horror!) or 1st, in combination with class consciousness, could certainly work the way you say.
Brew Man: I was unsure of how the oddity of the missing 2nd class carriages would be received. If it helped you, then I am happy. The only reason I discovered this was because of those 2 carriages on a siding in Victoria Station.
RogerB: I had no idea what I would discover when I was looking through the (literal) 8999 books online. There are many more oddities to come. Next month I focus on what may be the oddest railway thing I have ever seen. Do not miss it!!
Bee
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On today's edition of Signal Box, there was segment on the Corornation Observation Car.
This may very well be the identical coaches to the ones in the previous image. The designers did talk about the difficulty in the articulation. I found it difficult to understand, as the sound quality faded in and out.
Bee
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In this month's edition of Railway Oddities, I take a look at an image of Victoria Station, in Manchester. Victoria Station was the junction of two railways: the Liverpool and Manchester Railway with the Manchester and Leeds Railway.
The date of image creation is of great interest to me, 1844.* The reason is straightforward. We have many illustrations of the LMR, but they are primarily of the early days. The grand experiment was of great public interest, which resulted in a plethora of books and art. Yet very few illustrations or contemporary books are available from the later days, as the LMR sought to protect its secrets from other railways. This image of Victoria Station was created at the very end of the LMR, consolidated in 1845.
In studying the carriages in the image, we find this on the far right
These two odd carriages hold great interest, because of the Railway Regulation Act of 1844.
Parliamentary Trains
If your railway interest includes anything before 1956, then you may be puzzled by the lack of 2nd class carriages. There certainly are 1st class, and oddly 3rd class, but no 2nd class carriages. What "oddity" is that? In 1844, Parliament made it law that there was to be an affordable train for the poor and working class. The railways complied by making 1 train each day in either direction. Early in the morning or late at night, so as to not undercut their existing 2nd class service. If the mandated class was available, a 2nd class passenger might save money by riding 3rd class. We can't have that, now can we?
The LMR reacted like many early railways did to the Railway Act of 1844. The LMR had 4 inside and 6 inside 1st class carriages. The LMR also had seated 2nd class carriages. But no 3rd class carriages**.
Accomodation for this mandated service was fairly crude on most railways, sometimes called "Standups" because the passengers weren't seated. We do know that the existing 2nd class carriages on the LMR were demoted to 3rd and new enclosed 2nd class carriages were constructed. Sadly, no images exist. No Standups either on the LMR, no matter what the LMS constructed in the late 1920s for Lion's celebratory parade and that Hornby reproduced.
Because these trains were mandated by Parliament, they became known as Parliamentary Trains. By 1875, accommodation on the Parliamentary Trains had improved and there was little differentiation between 2nd and 3rd. The railways saw little point in 2nd class and simply dropped the class. Viola, 1st and mandated 3rd, but no 2nd! An oddity explained.
Back to the Carriages
As I studied those two carriages in the image, my first thought was Railway Act compliance. The timing is right. The LMR ended in 1845 and the image was created in 1844. The base carriage was of the original 2nd class type, with 3 scalloped bays. The carriages are in an LMR serviced area, Victoria Station. A contributing thought was that these were very early composite carriages, with the outside compartments being 3rd, the center inside compartment being 2nd. My excitement was palpable.
8999 returned searches later, we have: The Builder, Volume II, issue XLVIII, January 1844, page 21.
This architectural digest describes Victoria Station. A few details from the article: Victoria Station was 852 feet long by 130 feet wide. The lanterns are gas, controlled by a central valve, which illuminate the station for arrivals and departures. We can see those lanterns in the image. The center span is 59 feet 6 inches wide. The Builder claims that the roof "forms the largest extent of railway roofing in the kingdom". 5 main lines of rail from end to end.
And then, The Builder describes the two carriages! They have names, to wit: The Tourist and The Gondola. The carriages were constructed at the direction of the board of the Manchester and Leeds Railway, for the inspection of the line. The interior spaces communicated with the outer spaces, such that a person could walk between compartments. The carriages have the look and feel of very early observation carriages, but alas, not composite carriages. Not part of the LMR. Not carriages in public service. Sad noises and disappointment from the LMR enthusiast.
The article itself is linked below. There are details vis the gas lighting, track sidings and the carriages which I didn't repeat here. You may view the article, starting on the far left column, titled Victoria Station. Its not very long, and could be well worth your time, if your interest is early railways.
https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=gri.ark:/13960/t9188674x&view=1up&seq=25
Bee
*The artist, Arthur Tait, passed in 1905. Copyright extends for 70 years after the death of the copyright holder. This image has only been in the public domain for 48 years. Rather surprising for a period image of the LMR.
**Walker, 1832, shows only 1st and 2nd Class fares on the LMR.
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Hello Richard
If your track work is all new, than you can readily assume compliance to the standard. Thank you for clarifying.
The new bit of information is a gem however. You mentioned tiny brake bits near the wheels and how these may interfere with the wheels when the back to back is set properly.
If the wheels are catching on the brakes due to normal tolerances then the wheels can bind and climb rails. Tiny plastic bits are also subject to deformation as they cool.
Plastic can be urged back into design position by the gentle application of heat. You do not need to melt the wagon into a puddle of plastic, but a little heat briefly applied to a tiny member will soften it, permitting it to be re-set into a new position.
Set the back to back first, then examine the play in the axles vs interference of wheels with the brakes.
Bee
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Hi Topcat
I plead guilty. The word is spelled as you say. I actually do not mind my spelling errors corrected.
As way of explanation, in the US, we call them "trucks". In an effort to conform to a British audience, I attempted to use a British word.
Bogie, not boggie. Thank you.
Bee
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Hi Choo Choo!
Factor One: The rolling resistance of the axle in its bearing. If insufficient torque is applied, the axle will not turn. Rolling resistance is friction between the axle and bearing.
Factor Two: the torque generated due to the frictional force of the wheel on the rail. The frictional force is a function of the force vector perpendicular to the rail (weight of the boggie, spring force if any, etc).
XYZ's first check: Are the wheels touching the track? In this case, factor two, the torque, is zero, because there is zero force on the wheels perpendicular to the rail. The wheels skate.
Similarly, if the wheels are just touching the track. The perpendicular force vector is low, which generates insufficient torque to turn the wheels. The wheels skate.
Analogously, as the torque generated is a proportional to the perpendicular force, a large perpendicular force generates a large torque.. The torque overcomes the rolling resistance. The wheels turn.
Rolling resistance can be higher if the wheels, the axles and or bearings are dirty. Rolling resistance can be lowered through the judicious use of lubrication, being careful to not bathe the entire assembly in a liter of oil. 🙃
Checking that the wheels turn when you twist them by finger generates orders of magnitude higher torque than would be generated by the wheels on track. That really isn't a terribly informative test.
Either the perpendicular force is too low OR the rolling resistance is too high. Removing the boggie, as XYZ says, will help to isolate the factors.
If the boggie wheels turn on their own when the boggie is pushed along the track, but not when attached to the locomotive, then the locomotive is holding the boggie up, which limits the perpendicular force.
You can experiment by adding perpendicular force (finger press) on the isolated boggie testing.
Clean everything. Gently lubricate. Test the boggie by itself. Report back.
Bee
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Hello Richard
Firstly, I do not have your Drax Biomass Wagons. I was hopeful that someone who did would be along to help you, but alas, that did not happen.
From what you wrote, I gather that the coupling catches on the point work AND the wheels seem dodgy.
Wheel issues will be resolved by careful measurements. It is far more than just setting the back to back measurement to X. It is the entire system of rail gauge, point work including check rails, wheel dimensions, etc, that make the system work. Not just one measurement.
Now you did mention that you do not have any measurement tools. You are going to need a tool, may I suggest a dial caliper. With that in hand, you may measure per this advice
https://85a.uk/00-sf/setting_00_wheels.php
You will note that there is a different back to back dimension as a function of wheel width. The drum or tread width is critical on point work, which is why the back to back changes.
And speaking of pointwork, your points should conform to
https://doubleogauge.com/intermediate-track/ Note that stating such and so works merely means that the system for that combination functions, but is no guarantee of being correct for other combinations.
As to the coupling. If it catches, then simply trim or file a bit off of the offending part. I will assume tension locks. The tongue stinking down is used mainly for uncoupling. It will continue to function with a slightly shorter tongue.
Bee
Tightest Curve on a Standard Gauge Mainline
in General Discussion
Posted
What is the smallest radius curve on a Standard Gauge Mainline, in the UK?
The Gotham Curve claims to be the smallest, a radius of 55 yards (165 ft). In OO, that would be 660 mm, or somewhere between a 5th and 6th radius curve.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotham_Curve
The article carefully excludes industry and harbor shunting lines.
For the LMR, the tightest curve was purported to be at the Liverpool end of the line, just after the Wapping Tunnel. Bury provides us with two views of the Wapping Tunnel.
The first is of the inside, looking out. A slight curve to the left
Another view is at the bottom, looking in. A slight curve to the right
I've been able to locate this curve at the mouth of the tunnel on an Ordnance Survey map, Lancanshire CVI (106). Issued in 1851, 6 years after the LMR was consolidated. Find the red dot.
But look at that curve by the orange arrow. My word! That is very tight, but what is the radius? I puzzled and puzzled. How to get the radius? The distance scale on the map indicates 80 chains to the mile, a quick bit of maths informs us that 1 chain is 66 feet. Okay, so I have a reference.
It finally dawned on me that I could simply superimpose a circle on the image, and measure the radius. The first problem is to determine what the map represents. We can tell from the lithographs that there is double track, but does the map show 1 or 2 tracks? I see what appears to be two lines, with some apparent cross ties, how far apart are the lines? I find that the two lines are drawn ~13 feet apart. So each solid line represents a pair of rails. The map shows double track mainline, a breakthrough in map interpretation.
I then drew two circles, one for each track. The outer red, the inner blue. I carefully examined the pixels and converted the radius from pixels to feet. For the red outer radius, I obtain 123 feet +/- 5 feet. For the blue inner radius, I obtain 110 feet +/- 5 feet. It is difficult to say exactly what each pixel represents, so there is some uncertainty, reflected in the error band.
Converting to OO, I find the red outer radius is 492 mm, reasonably just under a 3rd radius curve. For the blue inner radius, I find 440 mm, just 2mm over a 2nd radius curve and certainly well within my error band.
Now there can be some quibble. Is that curve on the harbor line, for shunting? Perhaps so. Yet I would also suggest it leads directly onto the mainline. Perhaps qualifying for the "tightest curve on a mainline".
What is your nomination? Should we throw this open to industrial and harbor lines? Sure, why not!
Bee