What About The Bee
-
Posts
1,907 -
Joined
-
Days Won
1
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Blogs
Events
Articles
Downloads
Gallery
Store
Posts posted by What About The Bee
-
-
That was meant to be supportive of the moderators.
Even if you do not wish that to be publicly discussed, the moderators should at least examine the content of my now erased post. It represents a technical argument to be used when the moderators discuss the issue with the Hornby IT staff.
Erasing my post doesn't alter its content. Sure, others cannot see it, but it is true nonetheless.
My apologies if you took offense RDS. It certainly wasn't meant that way.
Bee
-
I'm going to offer an incredibly simple solution.
RDS Moderator Note:
Your suggestion for a little game has been removed. It is not clever to try to suggest ways around what has been an accepted way to run the Forum, years before you arrived on the scene.
-
@DRC
Did you go for all four articulated pairs (R40223/4/5/6) and the observation car? That will be a stunning rake indeed!
In the event that you did (and I am so guessing), please do share when they arrive!
Bee
-
The Booth Carriage, a question of Class
Class is defined herein as level of service, not social standing. While it is tempting to associate high social standing with 1st class trains, this is easily disproven. 2nd class trains were the local trains, stopping at intermediate stations along the way. One could purchase a "six inside" fare for 2nd class trains, thereby getting a 1st class carriage on a second class train.
What I'd like to investigate here is the presence of curtains on the Booth illustrated carriage that will appear in R30090. What does this indicate for the level of service or the class of carriage?
In another thread, I discussed the LMR Queen Adelaide carriage, to be found in wishlists. LMR Queen Adelaide carriage; Not to be confused with Her Majesty's Saloon Clearly a 1st class carriage and definitely had curtains, as shown. Those 4 summer carriages had curtains to permit a breeze during the heat.
We have the diary entry of one Miss Kennedy, of 1833, in which she names several 1st class carriages, but insists that they were all shut up and further "We preferred a more open one, that only had curtains to the sides". By this statement, we can see Miss Kennedy had the choice between enclosed 1st class carriages and curtained carriages, and expressed her preference.
From the evidence of the prior two paragraphs, I will assert that curtains are associated with 1st class carriages. Is that exclusive?
So what about known 2nd class carriages? There are plenty of illustrations. Indeed, I can identify forty six 2nd class carriages. The early 2nd class carriages had no roof and were the equivalent of stagecoach outside passengers. You sat in the environment for a cheaper fare, rain or shine. Within a few years, 2nd class carriages gained a front and rear walls and a roof, to protect passengers from embers.
Yet of the 46 class carriages in 2nd class, only 1 is depicted with curtains, to wit: the Walker drawing in Olive Mount with the same curious backward facing Guard. The 2nd class carriage appears to be the 6 forward facing rows and is identified by the unique door arrangement. So one of forty six. While curtains are associated with 1st class carriages, they are only weakly associated with 2nd class carriages.
We must remember that the Booth illustration appeared in 1830, when 2nd class carriages were literally outside seating. No walls, no roof, nothing to protect the passenger. The earliest Ackermann prints show exactly this and they are published AFTER the Booth illustration.
Booth clearly illustrated on that same page a 2nd class carriage.
But notice, no roof, no walls, no curtains.
I think evidence convincing, but as mentioned, I am not ready to die on this hill. I solicit your views and evidence.
Bee
-
In a different thread, we investigated Queen Adelaide's personal saloon. That carriage will appear in R40357. But Queen Adelaide's saloon is not what this thread is about.
The LMR had a first class carriage named "Queen Adelaide", which was constructed for the passenger trade. There are two excellent drawings of this carriage. Here is the better detailed of the two, unfortunately in black and white.
Bury/Ackermann has "Queen Adelaide" in yellow, indicating that the carriage is a 1st class.
Once again, three compartments, with 6 seating per compartment. We can see 3 passengers seated in the last compartment. What is unusual about the Queen Adelaide 1st Class carriage is that only the middle compartment is a glass compartment, the other two are open! The leather curtains could be drawn in case of inclement weather. This carriage was used in the hot summer months, per LMR records. There were three other 1st class carriages like this, "[Royal] William", "Croxteth" and "Fair Trader". So these four 1st class carriages are not the standard, but represent a deviation from standard.
Open First Class! A summer's breeze to cool roasting passengers.
I think the fare would still be termed "six inside", for 5 shillings, as these are indeed 1st class carriages per LMR records.
If we examine the unusual carriage depicted by Henry Booth in 1830, I note similar curtains. That is, the carriage need not be enclosed to be a 1st class carriage.
So this represents a potential extra carriage that Hornby could include in a train pack. This would indeed be new tooling, except for the undercarriage so it may be some time coming.
Fingers crossed, someday!!
Bee
-
A brief review of my materials does not reveal if MP Huskisson's estate received remuneration.
The director of Rocket certainly bears some degree of fault in the incident. Today, we might call it reckless endangerment. Commanding the vehicle to proceed at a rapid pace, into the crowd of persons at Parkside certainly shows lack of judgement.
Perhaps Locke is to be forgiven. Rocket had no brakes, and even with brakes, would require hundreds of yards to stop. There was little built up experience. Further, MP Huskisson directly contributed to the incident by his actions.
A dreadful accident, and given the state of medical practice at the time, a predictable outcome.
As to Miss Kemble, I do wonder if perhaps she exaggerated her emotions towards George, so as to excite the public and thereby sell more copies of her tome. She was an actress, with actor parentage, and thus would clearly understand manipulating public emotions.
Bee
-
Hi 3Link 👋
I may go to actual drag chains, but for now, the Hornby drag chain is sufficient. The Hornby drag chain has received mixed reviews, primarily for difficulty, but I find it simple to manipulate. Use each carriage in turn as a tool. The carriage holds the chain at an angle (as shown above) and then thread the drag chain onto the peg of the next carriage. While it may not be as fast as tension lock couplings, the drag chains do couple quite reasonably, perhaps 10 seconds each. Actual chains would require a new technique of course.
I simply do not like the appearance of tension locks, I think they spoil the illusion. Further, since they are not something I've grown accustomed to, I possess no affection for them. I do recognize that this is just my opinion and others may see it differently. It is apparent that there is some growing mood for change, as even Hornby are displaying magnetic couplings into NEM pockets.
I simply haven't developed a fine hand on the controls yet for actual chains. The Accurascale chaldrons use actual chains and they are taking a terrible beating, given my inadequate technique. Hopefully, with more time on the throttle, it won't be so rough.
Bee
-
Here is generation 2 of the tension lock replacements. The intent is to have a fine scale Hornby peg on old Hornby stock for the "drag chains"
Steps 1 through 3 should be self evident. In step 4, a loop is formed for the screw to go through. It isn't important to worry about perfect squareness as you get to step 5, just form the basic shape.
In between steps 4 and 5, I like to touch up the black coloured wire with a permanent black marker.
Install onto carriage, step 5, and now take the time to straighten everything out.
The drag chain now hangs off of my peg in a similar fashion to the modern peg. This is how I couple the carriages, with the chain extended from one, attaching to the other.
Here is the old tender attached to the modern 3rd class carriage, attached to the old 1st class carriage. All with drag chains.
I previously did a deformation test, which passed. These are shorter, and thus should be more robust. Nevertheless, the deformation test will be repeated.
Bee
-
Hi Harlie
Welcome aboard!
At the very top of my wishlist is Planet, although I would like it if the control levers oscillated on the footplate.
I have a veritable laundry list of Liverpool and Manchester Railway locomotives to follow. Yes to Patentee. I would also like to see maintenance of way Twin Sisters. Experiment, Samson (early 0-4-0) version. The later Edge Hill locomotives in the Bird Classes.
When it comes to rolling stock, there are several. Chinese Liverpool, LMR Queen Adelaide Carriage (Not Her Majesty's carriage in R40357, rather the eponymous carriage). The 'private carriage'....
In short, all of them !
But you must also have some favorites! Perhaps you will share?
Bee
-
An 1830 watercolor by Issac Shaw. Shaw is what I consider to be a first hand good observer.
That carriage at the end of the line has a peculiar roof line. It appears to be the Chinese Liverpool carriage.
Perhaps this is the reason for the name, the pagoda like roof. The sloping boxes also appear a bit shallower than other illustrations which may alleviate the issue I had with the passage between the center bench seats and the inset door. If the boxes are shallower, it permits a wider passage way. On the other hand, the sloping boxes appear outboard of the other carriages in consist, unlike Ackermann, another known good observer.
Extra points for the carriage on the right
Bee
-
@topcat
One thing I also particularly liked about the SVR Teaks is that they can be visited. I do not know your location, of course, but you could potentially visit to get a real sense of texture, color, look and feel.
This is the same dilemma Hornby often faces. Do they match the item people can see in a museum, or do they maintain historical perfection, but most people will not know? I will not hijack your thread, but for the LMR, there is real divergence between museum preserved 1930s and machine drawings from the 1830s. I think in the case of the SVR Teaks, you get the best of both worlds! Historical accuracy and preservation.
Cheers
Bee
-
@Topcat, I did what Bulleidboy suggested. You probably know this, but may I recommend that you put "Gresley" in quotes in the google search bar. This makes Gresley a required field in search results.
The search result I found most informative was this one
http://www.lnersvrcoachfund.org.uk/teak_set.html
Its actual Teaks on the Severn Valley Railway. Further, the folks appear to be toeing a very serious research line, which I think would be quite helpful to you.
Now of course, that's just the one I thought interesting. Color photos. Carriage by carriage analysis. Details! That's just me, this isn't the LMR and I hold only a passing interest.
I'd be interested to hear how it goes and what you decide
Cheers
Bee
-
TIME TO REPORT BACK ON MY FINDINGS
As you may recall from my first post in this thread, I replaced the tension lock couplings on my old Hornby LMR carriages with wire pegs. The wire pegs were suitably made to approximate the pegs on modern Hornby LMR stock.
Finding #1: The drag chain (fine scale coupling chain) kept sliding down the post, making the coupling of carriages more difficult. I will need a detent of some sort.
Finding #2: The pegs are too high. Next generation must be lower
Experience was set as lead carriage, with 15 modern carriages behind it. I attached all the drag chains and let the double head of Rocket and Lion drag the rake around. The intent is to put all the motive power on one side of Experience and all the drag on the trailing side of Experience. Will the wire pegs deform under load?
The video:
Finding #3: After 10 minutes of high and low speed, I was ready for inspection. NO DEFORMATION NOTED.
The wire is plenty strong enough. I simply have to reshape it and try again!
Bee
-
@3link
Not a prohibition of women specifically. In effect, yes, but the rule was established to prevent non-employees from being on the footplate. As the enginemen and directors were universally male, the effect was obvious. I will not view 200 year old social structures through the lens of modern sensibilities.
Miss Kemble, ~21 years of age at the time, reports that she was quite taken by George Stephenson, ~49 years of age at the time. She was a striking woman.
I like to think of the rule as the "No Miss Kemble for you George!". The rule makes perfect sense from a corporate standpoint. Prohibiting joyriding reduces exposure to financial settlements, which the railway occasionally did pay out.
Bee
-
Hi JJ
SWMBO could not stop laughing at my appearance in normal attire and a top hat! She obviously knows I have it, size 7⅜ if you please, but the incongruity of attire was amusing her.
I tried to explain the scientific nature of the experiment, but SWMBO wasn't having it. Sigh, the indignity I put up with!
There will be no image of my face on the internet, due to operational security concerns. I do recognize your request however JJ, would an image from the back be sufficient?
Bee
SWMBO: In yachting circles, sometimes referred to as "The Admiral". SWMBO means: She Who Must Be Obeyed! You may be the captain of this vessel lad, but The Admiral out ranks you!
-
Since we are very early in the Hornby process for Saloon No. 2, I thought to plant a seed in Mr. Kohler's imagination! So I sent him an email, stating 'ubiquitous queen wave' and a 4mm Queen Adelaide in the forward glass compartment.
I did ask his intentions
His response was vague, as you would expect, but he did say "interesting thought".
So the seed has been planted, perhaps it will flourish!
Bee
-
Women in the tender or on the footplate:
Per RGH Thomas: Miss Kemble's ride resulted in Board of Directors issuing orders, that no one was to ride in tenders or on footplate except enginemen or Directors. All presumably male. The Panorama therefore, has a problem.
HATS:
Before a proper discussion of top hats can occur, it should be put into context. I surveyed every period image I know of. There are three types of individuals shown. Enginemen, Riding Guards and Stationary Guards on right of way. If I could not observe the type of hat, primarily from lack of detail, the individual does not appear in this survey.
All guards wore top hats, without fail. It appears part of the uniform. Riding Guards only appear on first class trains, never on luggage or second class trains. 19 of 19 wore top hats. Stationary Guards are always depicted giving arm gestures, so they can always be selected. 7 of 7 wore top hats. Look at this image of Olive Mount and see the Stationary Guards
Enginemen have only 27 of 86 depicted in top hats. These numbers are weighted heavily FOR tophats due to Rainhill Trials and Opening Day images. Discounting those images brings top hat crew down considerably to 9 of 68 in top hats.
Before we examine the practicality of hat wearing, we must understand that most of the imagery relates to the early days of the LMR, not the years just before consolidation. In later years, express Royal Mail permitted a top speed of 40 mph. Yet in the early years, it was far, far slower.
The average speed was 16 mph for first class, 8 mph for everything else. This was measured by arrival time less departure time. The rules changed considerably in the early days, but Stephenson was concerned about rail breakage and wear and tear on the locomotives. When we consider even express stopped in Parkside, higher speeds could be expected elsewhere.
The highest speeds could be expected on the down hill inclined planes. Indeed, From LMR Regulations, we have Rule 27: That no engine, either with or without passengers, coals, goods or luggage [freight], shall go down any of the inclined planes at at greater speed than 20 to 25 miles per hour.....
Now the fashion of wearing top hats depicted in films shows the top hat perched high on the skull. That would easily be blown off in a breeze. The images in which we have detail (and a good observer like Ackermann), the top hat is worn virtually to the Guards ears.
Now it just so happens that I own a beautiful top hat, my hat size measured appropriately. This isn't a costume, rather, it is the genuine article. When I jam it on my head, my ears touch the brim, exactly as depicted. It also happens that today is very blustery and quite windy. Data at the government bouy nearby shows sustained winds at 25.2 mph(21 knots) and gusts to 32 mph(27 knots). Much to the amusement of my neighbors, I stood outside wearing my top hat. It never even shifted. Quite secure on my head.
I think top hats quite feasible, particularly as the Guard could grab onto his hat on the downhill inclined planes. Not that it was particularly needed, per experiment.
Cheers!
Bee
-
@LT&SR_NSE
The Booth illustrated carriage could very well be 2nd class instead of first. To use American slang, I'm not about to die on that hill!
Cheers
Bee
-
@ThreeLink
Quite the discovery for me, I have never seen that particular image before. This from a fellow enchanted with the LMR for a very long time. For me, it was an exciting moment!
The roof line looks all the world like leather or oil cloth stretched over a metal frame. Dave Engel at Engel's Coach Shop shows how it is done.
One word of caution about the panorama. It appears to be a collection of derivative images. The Lacey & Allen consist is pulled by Rocket, fair enough. Rocket has a generation 3 tender. Still not an issue. There are female passengers standing in the tender. Okay, that's a problem. Long dresses, coal and being in the way of the fireman might prove cumbersome. These types of issues tell me the artist did not view the railway first hand.
The consist on the far right is San Pareil pulling two chaldrons and a sheep wagon. Where's the tender?
Bee
-
While looking for data about fishbelly rail manufacture, I encountered this "panorama" of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway. The museum states the panorama was made before 1835, so definitely a period image
It is essentially a series of images on a long reel. Why not I said. As I was looking at the images, I noticed the Duke of Wellington's carriage depicted on the line on Opening Day. Quite a distinctive one that and certainly fodder for Hornby. The Duke's carriage will be for another day.
As I continued scanning the panorama
I noticed this
That red carriage behind the standard 1st class carriage in yellow. There it is. Fantastic! The Lacey & Allen in consist. We have a single passenger and a guard seated in the rear. The other two known images do not show people.
Unknown artist. Pre 1835.For the record, here are the other known images. First depicted by Booth, top row, middle. 1830
Then by Ackermann, middle row, right. 1831
Bee
-
I've received written confirmation of the carriages to be included in R30090 L&MR, Stephenson's Rocket Train Pack - Era 1
Customer Care has informed me that the pack includes "Traveller" and "Huskisson". Customer Care also notes that it includes "an additional carriage".
That additional carriage is specifically the unusual 1st Class carriage illustrated in Henry Booth's book of 1830. Simon Kohler has confirmed this in a different email.
I'm merely recording this for other customers who may have the same questions
Cheers!
Bee
-
I have always wondered whether the "boot" extension was an hurried but necessary afterthought - it seems to me to lack the finesse of the rest of the carriage both in design and execution.
+1.
The saloon is a custom designed carriage. Whilst it may have its roots in a 1st class carriage, the entirety of the saloon is a bespoke effort. Just as a cobbler might want to know the size of the royal feet, I would think the royal carriage maker would want to know how how tall Adelaide was before designing a custom sleeping compartment. The undercarriage was absolutely adjusted in length for the front compartment, why not for the rear sleeping compartment?
Which leads me into these questions.
1) Is this the first sleeping compartment for British trains, or were other sleepers about? None on the LMR that I know of, but that was a short run.
2) What locomotive pulled the saloon? I'd imagine the honor of being selected for the royal train caused just a tiny bit of competition in the engine house.
3) What carriages, beyond the saloon, were in consist? Where in consist was the saloon?
-
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armagh_rail_disaster
Under the heading: Circumstances of the accident, see Note 2:
"From the details given in the accident report, the excursion train engine appears to be one of the GNRI's H class"
÷÷÷÷
Imagery of the locomotive is widely available on the internet. I will leave it to those far more knowledgeable to confirm or deny the "H class" designation.
Bee
-
Hi ThreeLink
Thank you for clarifying the location of the bed. I can only examine photographs and suffer from an inability to inspect it first hand. Some day!
The extension into the boot was something I did not anticipate. I noticed the hatch, but assumed Her Majesty traveled feet first and thus the hatch opened into the middle compartment. Placing Her Majesty's feet into the boot makes sense. I just didn't realize her feet were so large*.
No need for a luggage boot anyway. Her Majesty would have personal staff and they would likely travel with her in other carriages. The luggage would simply go with staff.
The sleeping compartment shows the closeness of the 4 inside seating arrangements. The leg well is narrow when looking at the seat depth. Even with the most sumptuous of cushions, the compartment appears 5ish feet long. The internet tells me the average height of a woman in the 1800s hovers around 5'2". The extra length into the boot was required!
I wonder if Hornby will include a fine scale Adelaide in the pack? Her Majesty can ride about in the front compartment of the saloon, giving the ubiquitous 'queen wave'.
Bee
*a joke, obviously. Meant respectfully. I'm not about to insult British institutions.
Her Majesty's Saloon (Carriage)
in General Discussion
Posted
Earlier in this thread, I asked about the locomotive and the consist for the Queen's Saloon. After research, I think I can answer some of my own questions and would like to share that with you.
The London and Birmingham Railway only existed until 1846, when it was amalgamated into the London and North Western Railway (L&NWR). As Queen Adelaide's saloon was created in 1842, we have a very small window to consider indeed, 1842 to 1846.
The Engineer for the London and Birmingham Railway was Edward Bury. He specified 2-2-0 for passenger and 0-4-0* for freight, naturally of his design. It is very probable that the locomotive used for Queen Adelaide's Saloon looked like this
There is no definitive word on the consist of Queen Adelaide's train, but Queen Victoria's first train ride, dated 13 June 1842, via the GWR will be instructive. The locomotive engineer was Daniel Gooch, himself, Superintendent of the GWR. I do not think anyone can blame him for taking that honor. The consist was 7 carriages, with Her Majesty's carriage two back from the locomotive, which was Phlegethon. Phlegethon was a member of the Fire Fly class, as was Actaeon. We have a photograph of Actaeon, designed by Daniel Gooch.
A question later asked in Parliament about the journey confirmed that the two carriages between the royal carriage and the engine was in case of an accident as those two carriages would act as a buffer to the royal carriage.
I do think that Queen Adelaide would have been afforded near identical treatment on the London and Birmingham Railway. Very likely that buffer carriages were in place and that there were other carriages for support staff.
And with that, a Bury 2-2-0 passenger locomotive enters my wish list!
Bee
* Copperknob, Furness Railway No. 3, is an example of a Bury 0-4-0