What About The Bee
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Posts posted by What About The Bee
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Your experience has always been a concern of mine. Given the long lead times on certain items, would the attached card expire?
I remember seeing the phrase (and confirmed under Hornby support) that you could update the attached credit card by visiting my account and then orders.
So I tried to access the credit card attached to a preorder.
I could not!
You could contact Customer Care on 01843 233525 (Mon to Thurs 9.00am to 5.00pm and Fri 9:00am to 3:00pm) or by email customercare@hornbyhobbies.com
They do claim elsewhere that if your card is declined they will contact you, but I would not count on that being a smooth operation.
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You could of course, just make a new order with the correct card and cancel the previous order. I realize that may not be the most convenient exercise, but is most likely to have a positive outcome. You control all the details!
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I have a particular item on pre-order. It was originally due in Autumn 2022, but a few weeks ago, it changed to Winter 2022-23. Sure, no problems. Today, the flag changed from "available to pre-order" to "unavailable".
I can find nothing on the Hornby official website, but I did find this message on the Forum, from Going Spare. Presented as found.
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I believe the item 'flag' changes from "Available to pre-order" on a green background to "Unavailable" on a red background.
There may have been changes in policy but it used to be the case that Hornby treated their direct sales operation in the same manner as any other retailer inasmuch as it was required to place an order for forthcoming stock and, alongside all other retailers, if pre-order sales exceeded the original quantity ordered, it could order a further supply if Hornby's unallocated central stock was not exhausted. If there was no stock of any particular item still available centrally, the direct sales order could not be accepted and it therefore became "Unavailable" for any further direct pre-order sale customers.
Similarly, "In Stock" changed to "Out of Stock" in respect of items already released but no longer available for direct sale.
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Thanks for that Going Spare!
So can anyone confirm this? When a message starts out with 'I believe', it bears confirmation. If it is confirmed, I think this means that Hornby will honor my pre-order?
If that is not true, perhaps someone can explain what "unavailable" means?
Further, the website should clarify these things under FAQs.
Edit: In the interests of clarity and official Hornby definition, I've sent an inquiry to Hornby Customer Services. I will post their reply for others who may have the same question.
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Does anyone else think that cancelling and reordering to gain a few extra points somewhat undignified?
+1
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Whoops!
I do suppose I have been terribly unclear. It was not / is not my intention to make this thread about the L&MR. I used the L&MR as a way of explaining my inducements. My apologies for being obscure. My thanks to all the suggestions about scratch building. I'm well on my way with that. Ditto the comments about other niche manufacturers, chaldrons were certainly on the railway, so thank you Accurascale. I'm also not moaning about Hornby doing other models and not what I want. Heck no! I am quite happy with what has been done so far and look forward to what will come. Quite the happy camper here!
What this thread WAS supposed to be about are your inducements. 96RAF got that straight away. He jumped into what puts him off and what would make him more comfortable. Fazy suggested detail was something he could add later. That was in the spirit I intended!
I will try to be more clear going forward. Sorry about that 🤷♂️
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EDIT: It is not my intention to make this a thread about the L&MR. I merely used that as a way to explain the inducements. My apologies for being so unclear! 🤷♂️
In the Advent Calendar thread, I stated that the current programs that Hornby have installed are not an inducement for me to buy more product.
That begs the question. What would it take to get me to purchase more product? What could Hornby do?
1) Produce a greater variety of models in my railway of interest.
My personal interest is the Liverpool and Manchester Railway (LMR). I have everything Hornby has produced so far for the LMR. I have pre-ordered everything they currently intend to produce for the LMR. In terms of rolling stock, it is in the quantities I can reasonably expect the locomotives to pull, providing me with full consists.
But if Hornby were to make new LMR models, I would most certainly order them. There are many locomotives that haven't been produced, Planet being the most obvious candidate. Lots of rolling stock is available to model and has not yet been modeled.
Variety is something every one of us would like. Surely every enthusiast would jump at the chance for Hornby to make that special locomotive, that special piece of rolling stock that fits into their layout scheme.
[speaking of special, examine that diagram in my yellow icon up above. That is Robert Stephenson's Dynamometer car that he used to measure friction in 1818. There exists a large body of the empirical results he obtained using it and a diagram of engineering quality exists. I note the Dynamometer Car used with Mallard is now in its second production run at Rapido.]
2) Produce high fidelity models in my railway of interest.
A child will accept a representative model, using their imagination to fill in the details. As an adult, I want high fidelity to the prototype and exquisite details. If an existing model can be superceded with a noticeably higher detailed version, I can be induced to purchase, even if I already have the less detailed model. The 1960s Rocket was easily superceded with the 2020s Rocket. So now I have both.
That statement, for me, easily applies to the rolling stock as well. The current Hornby LMR "Coal Wagons" R60164 are essentially the rolling stock for the Rainhill trials, not coal wagons. Actual detailed engineering drawings exist for LMR Coal Wagons (Wood, 1832 & 1834), yet these were not produced. I could easily be induced to purchase more rolling stock, should the more accurately detailed models be forthforthcoming.
I am certain, however, that the demand for high fidelity is not universal. I note many Forum members who are quite happy with their existing models and would never upgrade.
3) Schedule as it reflects into budget.
More certainty in terms of scheduled delivery would permit me to more closely align expenditures with the expected budget. This allows me to squeeze in a bit more product. An inducement to purchase more, because I can!
I note many on the Forum with large pre-orders, which can ship at random times. Essentially, a customer can go quarters without a delivery and then be shipped 20 locomotives in a week. Yikes!! That plays havoc with any budget.
I empathize with Hornby here. They have subcontracted their entire production, and therefore, have little control over the schedule. They are virtually slaves to whatever the subcontractor communicates. Simon has attempted to explain his plight in various interviews. He is aware of the problem.
There are ways to manage subcontractors and perhaps Hornby will avail themselves of those practices. Subcontractor management directly affects their business and my ability to order more product.
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So those are my big 3. More variety of models. More details on the models. Better control of schedule, reflected into budget.
What would induce YOU to buy more?
Bee
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It feels like Hornby know that forum members buy their products regardless of what time of year it is,
That is a very accurate assessment of my purchases. I am interested only in a particular group of models. The advent calendar is not an inducement for me to buy more. The rewards program? Not an inducement. The club? Not an inducement. These programs are nice gestures, but do not change any part of my plan. I will continue my plan with or without these gestures. I have a plan and I will stick to it.
So if my attitude is somewhat representative of other Forum Members, then why should this fairly small percentage of sales (Forum Members) be targeted? If they want to target us, they can simply announce it here. They simply do not.
If every single one of the active members bought a particular model, the blip likely would not even be noticed by Hornby. Too small to be noticed.
The Hornby long term plan, as stated in their annual report, is to move to direct, online sales. TT is a straightforward manifestation of that plan. So that means driving sales online. Online advertisements, online website like this, etc. We are actually a small part of that, the more knowledgeable helping others, helps Hornby, online! We should do that (and I am grateful for those here who are far more knowledgeable than I).
Social media is important, so its reasonable to try to do online contests. It creates buzz. I do not fault them for the effort, rather I commend them. It is what they should be doing.
Look at the Day 3 contest. There were roughly 1400 comments, mostly just tagging their friends, as the contest required. The person tagged may have looked at it, so consider that 2800 people looked at that model, just based on the campaign. Evoking possible sales and Hornby goodwill. And what did that cost them? £125?
Bee
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Hi Lee
My personal view is that Hornby is giving each ecosystem or group (facebook, instagram, youtube, twitter, etc) a chance at a prize.
It would indeed be odd if any one individual participated in all of these social media systems. It is possible of course that such a person is out there.
Bee
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Hi Deem
The drawing you just posted is the correct one! 14.4mm Back to Back is the correct dimension.
While there may be subsequent and further issues as others correctly point out, your locomotive must conform to basic point geometry specifications. Fixing the geometry issue permits you to tackle other issues, knowing that this geometry issue no longer affects you.
There is the corresponding points specification. In your minds eye think of the wheel set moving side to side. Now with a piece of paper, do the sums. Consider where each wheel will be in relationship to the pieces of track.
Example: Place the wheel against (touching) the check rail. Traverse the axle, and see where the back if the other wheel is. In your case, the other wheel does not clear the wing rail. But what if your B2B was bigger than specified? The flange of the other wheel could pick the point, striking those rails, OR if entirely too big, end up in the diverting flangeway!
Now try that thought experiment with the wheel touching the stock rail. Does the opposing wheel clear the wing rails?
Points are fascinating to me, and were the subject of early patents.
Bee
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Hi Ellocoloco
Perhaps "fairy lights" or "mini LEDs". They come as small as 0.6mm bulbs, prewired into strings. Sadly not at realistic scaled spacing. 0.6mm scales to about 4.5cm for OO. Maybe a pinch large but certainly within "acceptable" range.
Battery powered too. No need to grab power from the rails.
The tricky bit will be to hide all the cable. Perhaps some clever lad can find a way! I've thought of a few, but rejected most.
This is my top idea. Depending on soldering skills, I do suppose the bulbs could be soldered to wires at the correct spacing, but that might be a daunting task.
Bee
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JJ
From the corporate Hornby perspective, the objective is to get you to subscribe to these services. The prizes that Hornby offer are essentially an inducement to join.
Examine day 1. Hornby would like you to join the Rewards program. Likely you already have, but if you had not, then the prize might get you to join.
The recent Coronation available only to Club members, offered at a very attractive price. Hornby wants you to join the Club.
Day 2 is a Christmas bundle. Hornby wants engagement on their Facebook channel. If you want the prize, you may sign up just to provide engagement.
If you want the prize, you need to do the thing they want. Me, I won't touch Facebook with a 30 meter pole. So I passed on Day 2.
Bee
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Congratulations Callum Doyle!! Lucky lad!!
Bee
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Deem,
While your image does indeed illustrate back to back dimension, it appears that your image is for FINE SCALE back to back. This would be the inappropriate dimension for your locomotive.
Please do follow the links I have provided you for INTERMEDIATE SCALE, which is what most Ready To Run is set to.
Fine Scale is the next level of realism, but all the locomotives and track in the system must conform.
Again, 14.8 is not the dimension you should be using.
You also mentioned being unable to set the B2B with your tool, because there is a gear in the way. There are B2B tools with a gap, used to straddle that gear. You can, of course, simply set the gap and measure it with a caliper.
Bee
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Hi Atom Al
You are correct. Considering only the back to back would be a procedural error.
The system of wheel profile, back to back, back to front, back to front plus tread width, flange width, flange depth, rail gauge, stock rail to check rail gap, check rail to wing rail width, wing rail to frog rail gap, frog depth, frog width right at points are just a few points of the system you need to consider. The inter relationship of ALL of them will decide if the locomotive will pass through the points or not.
The issue for Deem is that his back to back, at 13.8, is far smaller than the check rail to wing rail width, at 14.1, of any commercial set of points I am aware of for OO. My Peco points are indeed at 14.1 and would certainly pose issues for his locomotive.
Bee
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Hi Deem
Your Back To Back [this is the proper term, not 'wheel spacing'] is entirely too small at 13.8mm
The means that the inside surfaces of the wheels must straddle the wing rail and check rail at the points. If the points are made to the intermediate OO standard, that is 14.1mm
So think this through. The gap between the wheels is smaller than the two rails which must simultaneously fit betwixt them. So of course the loco hops upwards.
Please set your Back to Back for all axles to a minimum of 14.2mm. The Intermediate OO Standard demands that the Back to Back be 14.5mm, but we need not be so rigid.
Further, I would recommend you search out the Intermediate OO standards and understand what they specify.
Bee
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Like many, I am happy with the announced program. Once I confirmed there were no fees, I joined instantly. I will puchase directly from Hornby anyway, so this is a nice perk.
I looked at the Forum to see what others might think of the Hornby Rewards program. I also looked at some other message boards.
There has been quite a bit of debate as to Enthusiasts canceling pre-orders, only to reinstate those orders. In this way, they intend to maximize their reward points. While I can understand why this would function, it is fundamentally just system manipulation.
I found this under the terms and conditions:
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Consequences of misuse
In the case of improper use for which the Member is responsible, Hornby Hobbies Ltd retains the right to terminate the membership or withdraw Points or Rewards, refuse to issue Points or a Reward or refuse to accept the redemption of Points or a Reward.
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I thought for quite awhile about the method offered here and on other forums. Is the cancel/reinstatement manipulation equivalent to "misuse"? I am hopeful that this assessment is overly cautious, and Hornby does not see the manipulation as "misuse". Yet it could be.
For me, I will just let my pre-orders stand as they are. I have no intention of potentially ruining a long term benefit by getting myself terminated for a negligible number of near term points. Your mileage may vary.
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I've sent the text of the post to:
marketing@hornby.com
with a request to forward to Mr. Kohler.
Fingers crossed, Hornby models of these legendary locomotives find my layout.
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Lion R30232 has sold out and a second run announced.
All three runs of Rocket R3809, R3910, and R3956 have sold out. No new runs announced, but three runs sold out within such a short time span is fantastic business.
Surely Hornby can see the vitality and interest of Enthusiasts in their sales.
Patentee is the precursor to all steam locomotives that follow, they are merely variations of the Patentee theme. The Marklin Adler shows that Enthusiasts know and appreciate the Patentee design. Patentee would be most welcome on my layout.
Planet, LMR9, is extremely well known due to the reproduction locomotive at the NRM. I would simply adore Planet on my layout. An Enthusiast who knows of Rocket and Lion, surely is aware of Planet.
If the levers on the foot plate of Planet would oscillate as they do on the prototype, I would be thrilled. Its quite simple to implement via a cranked axle. It is not necessary to make the cranked axle the extent of the prototype, but simply enough to make the levers move.
I'm frankly surprised that Hornby have not already made this available as a pre-order to judge interest.
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Hi Luciton! 👋
You wrote:
[Hornby] can fall over themselves tooling up for museum pieces from 1829
I'm an enthusiast of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway. I enjoy the research, the literature, the period illustrations and, of course, the Hornby models. While I may take some small quibble with some detail or another, I find the product line quite enjoyable. Based upon how rapidly the Hornby models of the LMR go out of stock, other enthusiasts must find enjoyment as well.
There is little need to put forward your preference at the expense of others.
In other posts, you have indicated your layout models modern, electrified trains. You obviously take enjoyment in that. I would not think to impinge upon your desires by asking Hornby to stop making modern models just so I could have some obscure piece of LMR rolling stock.
If I might, I hope Hornby does take on models in the 31X class. Best of luck that Hornby can see it too!
Cheers!
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Hi Lyctus
I live in an area that has had electrified third rail lines for a very, very long time. NYC.
There are stories passed around, rumors if you will, of workers electrified. There is one persistent story of a worker who fell onto the rail and kept himself from touching ground until the system was shut off.
If you poke around hard enough, you will find a video of a homeless person who grabs the third rail. I would strongly advise against viewing this, it is quite gruesome.
As to the crowbar?10,000 amps at 600VDC means that one of two things occurs. The crowbar is thrown off just before solid contact, when the arc superheats the air like lightening, or the crowbar, unable to carry the current, simply melts.
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Earlier, regarding the Rainhill Trials, I wrote:
The requisite loads and cars that each competitor was required to haul could be an additional sale.
Full stop. What exactly did those wagons look like? There are precisely two engravings from the 1800s we can examine. A simple google search will show both of them. Google "competition rainhill" and then select the images tab. I present them here for convenience.
Turn your attention to Image 1. The text online, associated with this image, indicates that it was created in 1898. So disappointingly, this image is not a contemporary image, whatsoever. The Rainhill Trials occurred 69 years earlier than the image, which likely precludes the artist from having witnessed the event. So where did the artist get the inspiration from?
Image 2 shows the indisputable source of image 1. All of the design elements of the image are the same. Rainhill Skew bridge on the left, the stands in the background and Rocket with 2 wagons. In real life, the stands were ¼ mile from the bridge, yet both images show the stands nearly abutting the bridge. Rocket is hauling the same number of wagons. Rocket is facing the same direction. The only difference is the angle we view Rocket from. In 1898, it is an isometric view of Rocket, in image 2, an elevation view of Rocket.
The source for Image 2? The book entitled "The Life of George Stephenson and of his son Robert Stephenson; Comprising also a History of the Invention and Introduction of the Railway Locomotive"; By Samuel Smiles, 1857. The image may be found on page 324.
Now some have proposed that this image is conjectural. Further, since it is from 1857, that the drawing suffers from the similar defect of artist imagination.
Let me put paid to that discussion, immediately.
In the 1868 edition, the preface states: "In preparing the original work for publication, the author [samuel Smiles] enjoyed the advantage of the cordial cooperation and assistance of Robert Stephenson, on whom he mainly relied upon for information".
Furthermore, there is much existent correspondence from Robert Stephenson to Samuel Smiles. This particular letter
https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/documents/aa110100407
from Robert Stephenson mentions the biography of his father, to Samuel. It is clear they collaborated. Today, we might call this ghost writing.
From the acknowledgment in the preface, I conclude that Robert Stephenson had approval over the work produced. That the content was subject to his approval. The drawing that represented one of his most crowning achievements had his direct involvement and approval. Robert Stephenson was not just a competitor, he was present and participated in the event. His memory of his fantastic achievement would have burned brightly in his minds eye, for all his life. He was there. He triumphed! The drawing of his achievement, 'Competition at Rainhill', should portray that!
Let us now turn to Image 3. Image 3 is a close up of image 2, wherein we examine Rocket and Rocket's Rainhill wagons. One thing that seems apparent to me, in 2022, is that the wagons look very much like the tender. The only difference seems to be that the tender has the water barrel mounted, but the tender is otherwise identical to the wagons. Notice the quantity of panels, the height of the three wagons, the length. All very similar or in fact, the same.
As well, in 1898, the artist has observed the identical nature of the tender and wagons. Image 1 shows the tender and wagons cut from the same cloth.
We have an 1857 drawing approved by Robert Stephenson himself. An 1898 drawing, derived from the 1857 drawing, clearly identifying what we can observe as well. The wagons and tenders are all the same!
Image 4. Hornby Rocket (R3809 / R3810 / R3956) is shown with two wagons R60164.
Your views are solicited.
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I hear the call for the Royal Mail coach. I understand why enthusiasts would not want to purchase an entire set, just for that one coach. Yet I have the inverse issue. I have R3956 Rocket Royal Mail, R30232 Lion and R796 1980s Rocket. But what of the coaches Hornby have released, that are in sets I do not have? I do not wish to purchase full sets if the only thing I require is a named coach.
Mr. Dawson details a list of 34 'Known first-class coaches 1830 - 1845' in Table 9; "Locomotives of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway", 2021.
Of the early releases by Hornby, R346, R621 and R796, there were only 3 named first class coaches, to wit: Times, Experience and Despatch.
In R3809 Triang Rocket, there were Times, Experience and Despatch, consistent with it being a memorabilia design.
In R3810 Rocket, Hornby included Globe, Renown and Wellington.
In R3956 Rocket Royal Mail, Hornby included first class coach Treasurer.
In R30232 Lion, Hornby have included Experience and Traveler.
In R40371 Hornby will have Huskinson.
Given that the list of 34 known names is far from complete from a Hornby perspective, there is room to release 3 coach packs of first class coaches with new names. The tooling is done, one need only update the artwork. One of those new 3 coach packs could easily include the Royal Mail coach, satisfying those who require it.
The LMR contracted with more than 1 builder of first class coaches and further, they were improved over the years. A genuine mix of design is presented in contemporary prints. For me, this permits both old and new Hornby coaches simultaneously on the layout, reflecting true LMR consists. Cross coupling them merely means jettisoning the tension locks on the old stock and adding a few pegs. So I have no need of Times, Experience or Despatch.
Mr. Dawson's research of the LMR also reveals that Hornby have released names that simply weren't documented! That is, certain Hornby releases have no correlation with the known names. This can easily be waived away with creative license and that Mr. Dawson's list can never truly be exhaustive. Hornby is well within their rights here, yet it means there is plenty of opportunity to release multiple sets of first class coaches, using known names that have not been released.
And then enthusiasts can also get the Royal Mail coach! Which, I might add, is spectacular!
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Re: R796 Hornby Rocket conversion to DCC
redgatemodels have accomplished this. redgatemodels.co.uk
Please see their public post in this topic on rmweb https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/34949-trianghornby-rocket/
Redgate state they can install the chip for you, if the directions seem overwhelming
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I have received an update from Hornby on this issue. My belief is that Hornby will get ahead of this. This is a data processing problem, with known resolutions. It will just take time to execute and test the solution.
I have another preorder pending for R40371 Huskinson. Therefore, I will have a method of measuring Hornby's progress towards goal.
The text of Hornby's update follows
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Hello Xxxxxx
Thank you for your email
Sorry for this frustrating glitch. We are aware of it and we have informed the web team who are working on it.
Really glad you have received your Lion and that you are pleased with it
Best wishes
Xxxxxxx Xxxxxx
Trade Sales Administrator
Hornby Hobbies Ltd, Westwood Ind Estate, Enterprise Road, Margate, CT9 4JX
Hornby 2022 Christmas Advent Calendar
in General Discussion
Posted
Easy to explain the difference, on Instagram, you can post pictures with what you have to say. What? You can do that here too? 😲 No way!
Easy to explain the difference, on Facebook, you can post comments. You can say what you are working on. There are even model railroad groups you could join. Ask for help. What? That's what we do here? 😲 No way!
This is social media. Plainly and simply.
Now I totally get why some social media sites can be very toxic. Why a person wouldn't want to associate themselves with it. That's a personal choice and I can certainly respect that. But it is a personal choice. Your choice. My choice not to join Facebook. We don't have the toxicity here that other sites do, thanks to the moderators. It is quite a nice feature.
Most here have a very positive view of Hornby. I certainly do. Its an old venerable company with a rich history. That makes us the Hornby faithful. That statement is meant with the very best of intentions. Hornby Faithful.
The disconnect seems to be that some folks think the Holiday Contests as give aways to the faithful, a reward for supporting Hornby. I consider that to be wishful thinking.
The Holiday Contests are to drive demand, to create online buzz, to create business. If you choose not to engage in the social media selected for that day, please remember that it was your choice not to engage. Hornby isn't ignoring you that day, you choose to not participate.
The Hornby Reward program rewards the faithful. It rewards folks who repeat purchase from Hornby with a discount. As you spend, you get a discount on the next purchase. Ignoring the start up kerfuffles, it is a nice program. A reward to the faithful. Celebrate that!
The Advent Calender has nothing to do with repeat business. It is to drive new business. It is a marketing tool. Not a reward to the faithful.
Given the choice between the two programs, I will take the Hornby Rewards program over the Holiday Contests. Firstly, I absolutely never win, anything, ever. If you want to win a contest, make sure I have entered. It increases your odds of winning because I won't win. Secondly, the Rewards program allows me to select my prize. I can apply my points/discount to whatever model I want. Not the model Hornby selected for the contest, but the model I select.