What About The Bee
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Posts posted by What About The Bee
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JJ
You can rest assured that Hornby will take the 200 points. You will be the only person to ever end up with negative Rewards Points. 😄Please do update us with a screenshot, that will be most entertaining!
Bee
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Just in case I have ruffled any feathers by mentioning DRC and the large quantity of pre-orders, I will state forthrightly that it was for illustrative purposes only. Hopefully it was taken that way.
I also just let my pre-orders ride and now, happily, I will get the rewards points as well. 🙂
Hornby must have sensed the discontent about pre-orders (maybe even from the Forum) and did the right thing by us. Well done Hornby!
Bee
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Programmatically
Sequentially examine all customers
If (customer canceled and then reinstated multiple pre orders after program inception) then
(
Potential system manipulation found. Add customer to list for human intervention.
)
That is a trivial piece of database code. Likely less than an hour to properly write and test. List of potentials produced for study that day.
I do understand that there could be an innocent explanation for canceling and re-instating an order, that is why there should be a human based decision in the last act. But multiple pre-orders? All in a row? Short duration of manipulation, task based? That person will be easily spotted.
DRC, I believe you mentioned 40 pre-orders? I know you stated that you just let it ride, but if you had canceled 40, and then reinstated 40, that isn't indecision on a particular model. Canceling 40 could be financial distress, but did your finances change so suddenly that you could re-instate those same 40? In 2 hours? More than likely, it would be perceived as gamesmanship. Your mileage may vary.
I do not wish ill on anyone. Yet actions have consequences.
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So it just occurred to me, if Hornby are now going to include all existing pre-orders, the people who cancelled and re-ordered and now potentially face price increases and maybe even disqualification of receiving reward points did it all for nothing?
Yes, exactly.
Not only was there zero gain, but the potential for swallowing a price increase is high.
I've also been concerned that there could be a penalty, because of the obvious manipulation. Hornby will easily spot this and the terms and conditions specifically warn about attempts to game the system.
Bee
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You are correct, the issue may have been an IT glitch.
My aim is to understand how the system works and "unavailable" does pop up from time to time.
From my uninformed perspective at the time (1) I had a model on order (2) the model was marked as "unavailable" (3) the page was withdrawn. I know now that this did not mean Hornby ceased production, but that was my concern.
So far, so good.
There was a new system behavior (model reappearance). The state was "unavailable" before, but 12 days later, the state is "available to preorder". So in my effort to understand the new behavior, I postulated a theory. That theory could be wildly incorrect 🤷♂️. Alternatively, there may be merit.
I'm patiently waiting for a Hornby response. Until then, I will observe behavior and fit it as best I can.
Bee.
I get the sense that the moderators read every communication. If so, my apologies for being so chatty.
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I'm not fussed or panicked about the points. Hornby said they are going to do it, I believe them. It will happen when it happens.
I just was curious about the system and I learned something. For whatever reason, I had never investigated the "Hobby Points". Thank you Roger, for pointing that out.
In so far as using your points to pay for a locomotive outright? Why not! If you have managed to acquire that many points, then absolutely yes. I agree with BB, nothing in the terms & conditions prohibits that.
Bee
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If you recall, this thread was started when a model I was after went "unavailable". After a period of time, the page representing that model was removed (404 error)
The page has re-appeared and the model is "available to pre-order" with the same expected arrival as before.
Cancellation? Possibly, the predicted arrival is this quarter (Winter 2022-23). That's a terrifically tight schedule for a new run.
The only way that Hornby could have a new production run would be if one of the other Hornby models was pushed out from its time slot at the factory OR Hornby just put a random due by date.
Bee
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I went back through the rules, terms and conditions. I think these are the relevant paragraphs.
÷÷÷Snip÷÷÷
The points will be added to your Hobby Rewards account at the time of payment. These Points will appear as Pending until the end of our 14-working day return period. Pending points will become active after this time. Should you choose to return any items in your order, the pending points for those items will be withdrawn.
You will earn points on any pre-orders. These will become active 14 working days after receipt of your product. During the wait for delivery of your pre-order, these points will appear as pending.
÷÷÷End Snip÷÷÷
So I am not sure how a pre-order will appear in my Rewards account prior to payment being taken. Do they show up as pending, even though the payment has not been taken?
Bee
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Hi LT&SR
The only reason for it to sit on my shelf is insurance, should I ever actually need it. At the time I need it, if ever, the spare will likely be unobtainable.
I will look into a freight forwarder to see if that is viable.
Bee
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During my career, making unique spare parts available to a client was always a boon to my bottom line. Afterall, how much is a spare part worth to a client if his machine is down? His production hobbled, his bottom line affected. The short answer is a tremendous markup, even more so if it is something we made in our machine shop.
This has also heightened my awareness of having the right spares on the shelf, for that magical moment when I might need it.
Here is my little tale of woe. Lendons has the component! I am thrilled. It could be sitting on my shelf, not Lendons' shelf. Ready to go!! Alas, Lendons will not ship internationally. Tantalizingly out of reach.
Bee
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Hornby told the Mods yesterday in our periodic video call that they will be emailing folk who have such pre-orders in place that reward points will be back awarded.
Could this be its own thread please!? This does not deserve to be buried under Sir Nigel Gresley.
I think you mean that pre-orders, not filled before the reward program established, will indeed get points when their order ships.
That is big news if true and should be plainly and explicitly stated.
Thank you.
Bee
Mod note - as stated those affected will be emailed.
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The website has overtaken the catalogue as Hornby's shop window and it is all-too-easy for the public to lose faith by errors in what they are (or are not) being told.
Hornby should consider the web site as the customer's "Local Hobby Shop", particularly so for TT. Particularly so for Rest of World (ROW) customers, just like me. Particularly so as retail is transitioning to online sales, everywhere.
A poorly executed web site reflects badly on a company. Having an indecipherable web site that their own customer service agents cannot explain is inexcusable.
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This may be best described using a diagram. I have created these for the purposes of discussion.
Please note that these may be incorrect and merely represent my understanding at this moment in time.
We know the four states. They are "Available to pre-order", "Unavailable", "In Stock" and "Out of Stock". So lets start there, four states.
Let us examine how I think we move between the states. To do so, I will pretend that Hornby have announced Model T, or MT for short.
So Hornby sets MT as "Available to Pre-order" and the quantity N in that state. N is not publicly visible, but let us assume N=500 to start.
We, the customers, see MT and make our selection. If I choose to order it, Hornby take state transition #1. Hornby decrease N by 1, as my order takes one of the allocation. N is now 499, but there is no state change. Our state is still "Available to pre-order".
Suppose MT is a very popular model. Pretend MT is a Hornby Dublo Steam Generator Mallard with a Dynamometer car, priced at £1.00. N will swiftly go to zero and we take state transition arrow #2, arriving at "Unavailable". Mr Kohler would be well advised to order more Hornby production. MT will easily sell more copies!
Suppose MT is not so wildly popular, and we the clients sit on our hands, waiting for the reviews to come in. The shipment arrives at Hornby. Hornby will take state transition #3, copying N to "In stock". If we assume that MT had 240 preorders, the new state "in stock" will have N=260, because 500-240=260.
The reviews are positive. We the customers place orders. As we do, we take state transition #4, decreasing N by one for each order as it arrives. We do not change the state, in stock, until N goes to zero. When N=0, Hornby take state transition #5, arriving at "Out of Stock"
But what about Cancellations and Returns?
State transition arrow #6 shows a cancellation. N increases by 1, and Hornby move to "Available to Pre-order". This happened recently for a Hornby Dublo Sir Nigel Gresley. Not shown: N not zero and a cancellation, the state remains "Available to pre-order" but N=N+1
State transition arrow #7 is theorized and totally speculative. I expect that a model returned in good condition is sold on. Similar to a cancellation, we may transition to "In stock" or simply increase N.
Stock Alerts:
From any of the three states, a stock alert is nothing more than gathering your email and advising you if either "In Stock" or "Available to pre-order" state is achieved. I do not believe this shows Hornby's intention to create more models, but simply is a way to measure demand. If the model sells out quickly, and there is a large (?) number of stock alerts, perhaps Hornby go to new production.
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While still not a complete answer, here is some information.
Today, the direct link to the web page of the model gave a 404 error. A 404 error is when the page is not found. An outdated link.
Searching for the model by era gave, among other models, the thumbnail to the model in question. That thumbnail is a link, and when clicked upon gave the same 404 error.
So the web page supporting the model is no longer there. It was removed.
Now Hornby did get back to me. The Customer Service person indicated that the model is due in "within the week", so it is clear that the model IS being produced. When I quizzed that person directly, they stated that they actually did not know what unavailable flag means. That person promised to find out and get back to me. I remain hopeful of that answer.
Yet the evidence is stacking up. There was a model "available to preorder". Hornby clearly produced the model. The status changed to "unavailable" BEFORE the models arrived at Hornby. Hornby will not let anyone else order that model. I think this means that they sold every one of the models produced. This means that "Going Spare" appears to be correct! The evidence agrees with his assessment.
There is one interesting detail to be learned. The database that returns models by era is not live, but represents a snapshot in time. The web page for the model was gone (404 error) but the search by era gave the model as a result! So Hornby removed the page but didn't update the database. The database looks to be updated between midnight and ~2AM GMT, as a search by era now no longer yields the result for that model.
Unavailable Flag looks more and more like "Hornby sold out the model on pre-orders". Good on Hornby!!
Bee
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Hi Silver Fox 👋
I carefully read your communication to see what I could learn. First, I wanted to understand your issues.
The complaint was missing items from your order. A missing curve and a missing coupling. You mentioned an imperfection in the splasher, but do not wish to pursue it?
It is inferred, but not stated, that you contacted Hornby. Further, that Hornby took your issue seriously, took your word that the items were missing without disputing it and that they promised to send those items along, with their apologies. Do I have that right?
If I do have that right, then Hornby treated you honorably. They took ownership of the issue. They have taken action to set things right.
Here is what I learned. Hornby has their heart in the right place.
May I request, Garry, that you follow up with us if/when the missing items arrive? I would appreciate that, to continue my education. Thanks in advance.
Bee
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Maybe O scale would be better perhaps the whole pie could sit on the wagon.
The commercial establishment I referenced previously (Hamburger Choo Choo) delivered full plates of food on flat cars.
Although it has been many decades, I recall 3 rail O Scale being the delivery train.
The train ran along the back side of the counter, stopping as needed. Your plate would stop directly in front of you! You would off load your full size plate. Then the train would trundle to the kitchen for another load!
The picture on the sign of the store is somewhat representative, but not accurate. Artistic license must be accounted for!
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When a transaction goes smoothly, error free and without issues, there is nothing to be learned. Yes, you have your product, but what did you learn?
When there is some kerfuffle, that is when you see directly into a vendor's heart. What does the vendor say? What does the vendor do? Is the vendor a class act or a clown?
I am hopeful that Hornby do the right thing by their clients. Mistakes happen. That is a normal part of life. It is what happens after the mistake is brought forward to the attention of the vendor.
Pay attention to that. That is when the learning starts.
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The customer service person did say that they would find out and get back to me. I will take that person at their word!
In consideration that this is a status that we, the customers, see, it makes sense that the definition should not be so secretive. For us or for Hornby!
Bee
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The plot thickens.
I have received near instantaneous response! I almost fainted.
The person who is tasked with customer care simply does not know either!!
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Hi Brew Man
That would be an overseas, international call for me.
I did follow up with another email, lucky them!
Bee
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I have received communication from Hornby regarding the "unavailable" tag.
It is with regret that I report that Hornby misunderstood my question and simply did not define what the "unavailable" tag means.
They did inform me that the model (NOT THE P2) I had on preorder is arriving "next week", so there is that.
Bee
Edit: to spell communication properly.
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Service Sheet 73
http://www.hornbyguide.com/service_sheet_details.asp?sheetid=193
Service Sheet 49
http://www.hornbyguide.com/service_sheet_details.asp?sheetid=324
Based on the vintage, I would suggest making your own decals. Here's how
https://www.belloflostsouls.net/2022/06/hobby-tutorial-make-your-own-custom-decal-sheets.html
Bee
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Hi JJ
Your pictures reminded me of a small shop in my childhood village.
Hamburger Choo Choo delivered your food on custom built flat cars. They would carry a full plate and stop right in front of you. Charmingly smooth delivery!
What fun that was!
The establishment burned down and was never brought back.
Bee
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BulliedBoy asked: Does this mean that the "unavailable" models have completely sold out?
I have that exact question in to Hornby Customer Service, albeit for a different item. Its been a few days, but hopefully they will get around to it.
Hornby Rewards and Pre-Orders
in General Discussion
Posted
Hi Brew Man
I think DRC has it right.
The points DRC earned ARE pending. They just happen to be zero! At the end of the receipt period, those non-existent points will become active.
DRC thinks it part of this grey zone, in which there is a change over in how the system works. I happen to agree with this.
Hornby will straighten this out. Confidence!! Some patience on our part will be required and a pinch of verification too.
I'd be much more concerned if this was the end of January, but this is just days after the correction announcement.
÷÷÷÷
Speaking of the rules though, the T&C state, as Brew Man reports, 14 days after receipt. An email I received from Hornby Hobby Points today states
Pending points will become active 21 days after receipt of any corresponding order.
This is a disconnect, an obvious conflict and should be corrected at the web team
Bee