What About The Bee
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Posts posted by What About The Bee
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@threelink Stone sleepers will be fairly evident, as they are ~2 feet square with a hole center drilled for a oak plug. That would be quite a thrill to find. Naturally, the responsible society should be informed and the block left in situ for archeological investigation.
@rana temporia. Modeling fishplate rails on stone sleeper blocks is a secret (well, not anymore 😁) desire of mine. This would require making my own fishbelly rail and rail joiners. I have been dreaming of this but have yet to come to a practical method of manufacture. Casting?
Of the 31 miles of the LMR, ~18 were in stone block and the remainder in wood sleepers. The rails were mounted directly to the rock substrate in the Olive Cutting. It is generally agreed that stone sleeper blocks didn't work well and were largely replaced over time. Wood sleepers maintain the gauge, but as the stone blocks were independent, I can easily see the gauge drifting over time.
Bee
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The dumb buffers illustrated by Henry Booth in his 1830 book show only dumb buffers. I have re-read that book just now, searching for an explanation of the plate, a description of the rolling stock and perhaps some information about the buffers. Booth does not even provide a description of the plate. In that, no joy.
I stated that the Nicholas Wood illustrations of 1834 shown only dumb buffers but that the 1838 Practical Treatise ... shows sprung buffers. This narrowed down sprung buffers into a 4 year period.
According to Wood, 1838, one Mr. Henry Booth received an 1836 patent for sprung buffers. This is obviously the same individual. What appears to be the patent drawing is opposite page 218. I present that here:
There are four springs mounted in the center of the undercarriage. The two outer, smaller springs ease the jerk during acceleration. They are connected to the center mounted hook by a long rod in tension. The two inner, larger springs ease the jerk during deceleration. They are connected to the four buffer rods under compression. This leads us to the method by which the carriages are attached to each other, by screw link coupling. Shown next to the undercarriage in the illustration. The ball at the end of the lever is designed to prevent the lever from unscrewing.
In practice, Booth specifies that the carriages are drawn up to each other by the screw link until the buffers are touching, then the screw link is turned "two or three times more...equal to about a fourth or fifth of the elasticity of the springs".
Wood goes on to say that the Booth patent was adopted by the Liverpool and Manchester, the Grand Junction and the London and Birmingham railways. Thismlikely was a generous source of income for Booth.
Upon closer examination of the Hornby under carriage, it is clear that the Booth patent was not followed. I do suspect that the Hornby undercarriage closely matches the replicas built in 1930.
Bee
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Deem
This all comes down to the following
1) if the round barrel of the shoulder screw can go through the green wheel, you need to fix the nut into the back of the green wheel with a bit of adhesive.
2) if the shoulder of the shoulder screw bottoms out on the green wheel, then any type of thread retainer will keep the shoulder screw from loosening on the nut
This is total sum of the problem. You can do both, of course. Affix the nut with adhesive to the green wheel AND use some thread retainer.
Bee
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With the interest shown, perhaps some other morsels are in order. Booth depicted several pieces of rolling stock on that plate, that plate shown here:
Top Left: Carriage in Train Pack R30090, which we have previously discussed.
Top Right: 1st Class Carriage Wellington. The yellow carriage now most commonly associated with the LMR in modern imagery.
Bottom Left: Yet another 2nd class carriage. It had to be a very early 2nd class carriage, as there was no roof, a feature swiftly added to prevent burns to passenger clothing from the locomotive exhaust.
Bottom Center: double decked Sheep Wagon. The LMR did a roaring trade in transporting sheep. Hornby have offered R40165 sheep wagon pack. I cannot wait for this to arrive.
Bottom Right: I believe this to be a pig wagon. Single decked. I suspect this will be offered by Hornby in the coming years, due to simplicity of adaptation.
And now on to the most unusual carriage. Top row, center. Zoomed for your convenience. This is absolutely not a horse drawn carriage loaded onto a flat wagons. Ackermann depicts horse drawn carriages loaded onto flat wagons. Not the same!
This carriage depicted by Booth carriage has only railway wheels and represents one of the very earliest 1st class carriages. The LMR turned to the carriage trade for ideas in early days. The carriage trade built the body of a horse drawn carriage onto a railway undercarriage! When compared to Wellington, this carriage had far fewer seats. The guard would sit in the open seats on the front (left) of the carriage, where the horse drawn carriage driver would sit. Baggage in the rear compartment. The center inside could seat possibly 8, but much more likely 6 or 4, consistent with horse drawn carriages of the period. Go back and look at the Ackermann private carriage for reference. Carriage Wellington, yellow 1st class carriage depicted on the Booth plate, could seat 18 passengers.
Bee
Mods: This will only be submitted once...I hope 😁
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@Topcat
A "Sharpie" permanent black marker will make swift work of colored insulation, turning the wires all black.
Since I am not in the UK, I do not know if a "Sharpie" is known as a Sharpie in the UK. So forgive me for using a US trade name!
I'm convinced, however, such marking tools do exist!
Bee
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Hi Rana Temporia
When Hornby decided to bring Rocket back in 2020, they had some critical decisions to make. Should they model the reproduction carriages present at the museum, or use the period illustrations? Additionally, Rocket still exists, as both a reproduction and a preserved locomotive.
For the 1st class carriages, in yellow, and the third class carriages, in blue, Hornby have selected the reproduction museum carriages. Hornby have also selected Rocket in Rainhill Trials configuration.
For all the wagons and carriages after that 2020 release, Hornby have relied upon the illustrations.
@threelink The above provides a rational explanation of why the undercarriage is wrong for the Booth Unicorn in R30090. Hornby is using the undercarriage from the 1930s reproductions, across the rolling stock fleet. It follows then that undercarriage would be here.
An examination of the buffers in Wood 1834 shows only dumb buffers. The 1838 edition of Wood shows sprung buffers. The Booth Unicorn in R30090 was from an 1830 publication, pre-dating sprung buffers. Yes, in that it does not match.
Sometimes, I am envious of the wealth of photographic evidence present for other enthusiasts. That didn't exist for the LMR, simply because photography hadn't been invented yet!! On the other hand, I am thrilled with these models Hornby have boldly released. My layout would not exist without them, I would just revel in the books and the history. The models add a wonderful dimension for me and you will not catch me rivet counting
Bee
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Nearly two CENTURIES have passed JJ. That's a lot of time for technological improvement. The carriage Booth depicted was cutting edge for his time, the absolute pinnacle of achievement.
Bee
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After a long think, the square panels are situated right where the seats would be.
From the extant Robert Stephenson mechanical drawings of the blue carriages, it is known that the stowage of passenger baggage was under those seats.
Perhaps the square panels, depicted in Booth's image, are the access ports to under seat stowage for these carriages.
Just a thought
Bee
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I really empathize with you moderators on this one. What a headache this must be.
If the web team won't do a pop up box, they could just do a "awaiting approval" image in place of the actual image. That way, we get to see our post is there (albeit without the proper images) and will not post it again. Just a different concept that achieves the same goal, to wit: no double posts.
That would also give me a chance to correct the small errors, grammatical, spelling, punctuation and of course, white space 😉, because I can see it and edit the text; all while waiting moderator approval of my images!!
Bee
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Nut retainer. Locktite 242 is one example.
A tiny little dab will do ya!
After you know everything fits together, remove the screw and place a very, very small amount of the nut retainer on the threads of the screw. Think micro grams here. Follow the directions about curing.
Problem solved
Bee
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Hang on!
We do not see "awaiting approval" state flag. That must just be for moderators, only. If we could see that state flag, it would alleviate this problem immediately.
You can prove that to yourself by setting up a dummy account that does not have moderator status. Submit a post, with an image naturally, and observe if you can see the "awaiting approval" state flag. You will NOT! In fact, you see nothing at all, because the post isn't shown..
Rob Mod note - my OP edited for clarity
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I plead guilty.
After submitting the initial post, I panicked. Was I about to get rebuked for white space in between paragraphs? For white space at the end of my post?
Since I was at the General discussion page, I refreshed, looking for my post. It wasn't there! Oh no!! It didn't work!! Instead of remembering that an image needs approval, I submitted it again.
And that's when the penny dropped. My error.
I do suppose 15 lashes with the cat of nine tails are in order.
Bee
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Hornby have produced Train Pack R30090. In that pack are three carriages, two 1st class carriages and what I and others have termed a "2nd class carriage".
Upon careful examination, the Hornby new tooling does not resemble the 2nd class carriages in the Ackermann prints. Ackermann prints are considered definitive. There are four types of 2nd class carriages depicted by Ackermann. The blue carriages without roof (early), the blue carriages with roof (improved), the 6 forward seated rows and the double box with center entry.
There are other depictions of 2nd class carriages in period literature. Examples include Austen, Crane and Freeling, yet in general, these are simply re-arranged images from Ackermann.
What then is the source, the inspiration for the Hornby carriage?
Henry Booth was the Treasurer of the enterprise. In 1830, Booth published An account of the Liverpool and Manchester Railway. Among the plates in that book, we find a representative sample of the carriages used on the railway. These are the carriages used prior to and including 1830, not the carriages used afterwards. Henry Booth was Treasurer, so he would have been in a position to actually know what an early carriage would look like. The samples presented are a strange collection, with an odd perspective. One of them has distinctive sides and unusually shaped doors. Observe it here:
Even the casual observer can see the distinct similarities between these! Look at the center posts, there is a point in the side panels there. The exact shape of the doorway is present as is the odd square decorative panel between the doors. The number of doors. The seating arrangement. The curtains. Yes, there are some details that are different, for example, seating for the guard is not on the Hornby model. Some creative license must be allowed. But I think you will agree, it is the carriage depicted by Henry Booth.
So instead of a generic 2nd Class Carriage, Hornby have produced a unique Henry Booth carriage. My word! A sleeper is present!!
Bee
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@RDS
When you make a joke, or a comment intended as silly, put some marks on it, so the reader can see its a joke.
Like 'that's a joke!', /jk, or 😁.
When I first saw your response, my initial concern was for you. Perhaps the man is having an issue at home or at work. I was actually worried for you. I did not see a joke. Perhaps that's just me, but we can assume that others didn't see it either, since DRC took umbrage.
Just a friendly thought
Bee
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@RDS
My goodness. What an odd response.
I discover that Hornby have made an innocent error. This error is bound to create customer ill will if not corrected. The customer will get the item, only to discover there is no locomotive, even though the page prominently featured that locomotive, Tiger, in imagery. I make the extra effort to not only point the error out, but to document the details. Cross referenced by product number to permit ease of investigation! Non-trivial to get all those product numbers correct.
What response did I get? Did I get a "we will look into that", "whoops, we will fix that", "thanks for lettings us know!", "we appreciate that, great effort!" or "Hornby will be informed at our earliest"? Nope. None of that.
The response I got was to "stop adding white space at the end of a post". ??????
Oooookay, sure. No problem 🙂
The important thing is that Hornby is informed about the error. Would you kindly take some notice of this issue and acknowledge that it will be passed on?
Bee
No white space! 🙂
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Image one shows two boxes. They appear to be R30233 Tiger Train Pack and R40372 Times Carriage pack. Tiger is also shown outside of the box with 3 coal wagons, consistent with the R20233 Tiger Train Pack.
Image two shows 1st class carriage Times with two 3rd class carriages. I believe this is the correct image for R40372. You will note that this is entirely consistent with the content of R40371 Huskisson (one 1st, two third) and at almost the same price.
Image three shows locomotive Tiger pulling Times and two 3rd class carriages, inconsistent with any individual product, albeit similar to the content associated with R30232 Lion Train Pack. Perhaps this was a prior marketing concept drawing that got superceded when the coal wagons replaced the passenger carriages, and snuck through?
What's inside specifies: 3×coaches
Tech Specs specifies: 4 parts
If Hornby is going to sell both sets for £94.99, we have a deal.
Bee
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Hi Ellocoloco
While they may just be a bit busy now, Hornby can confirm your pre-order.
Just dash off a note and see what they say.
It could be that SteveM6 is correct!
Bee
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The carriage pack R40372 show images of locomotive Tiger.
There are going to be some very surprised folks.
They will rely upon the photos, thinking they are getting a top end loco for £94.
What they will get is 1st Carriage Times and qty 2 of 3rd Class Blue Carriages. This is specified in the text, so read carefully.
This should be addressed by Hornby
Bee
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I am fairly happy!
Hornby have released Queen Adelaide's Coach (R40357) which comes with 1st Globe and 1st Wellington. Queen Adelaide's coach is a preserved 1842 carriage, so Hornby have the exemplar, the prototype. This carriage has always been a secret wish for me. Upon launch, this was in the basket, immediately!
LMR 58 Tiger is announced (R30233) and the 1930s copper embellishment given to Lion is dispensed with. Looking very smart there Tiger. Tiger also made its way into my basket.
Hornby has now provided me with a small issue. What to do about the other manufacturer's Lion, currently on order? There was to be a run off, with the lesser of the two becoming Tiger. That can't happen now! What to do? What to do? For now, a think.
I note a 2nd class carriage in R30090, depicted by Ackerman, Booth and Walker in their period illustrations. These started life much as the 3rd blue carriages, but when customers complained about burnt clothing, front and rear walls were added. A roof was added, with curtains on the sides. LMR ran entire consists of 2nd class carriages, which was the local train. With only one 2nd class carriage in the set, I passed. I await three packs of this carriage, so an entire consist can be properly arranged.
19 minutes in from launch, my pre-orders were complete. LMR9 Planet remains a dream, just like Patentee.
Bee
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Hi VickyP2
Under the assumption that some other handrails are still on the model, measure them with a caliper. Calipers are available at almost ever home improvement store and are not terribly expensive.
When replacing handrails, be aware that craft wire comes in various gauges, and therefore, you can closely match the size of the existing rails. Craft wire also comes in various colors.
It will not do to simply replace the handrails. You should replace them with the proper size! At least in my mind, attention to detail provides a better result.
Cheers!
Bee
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@Threelink
As soon as I posted, I thought to myself, that sounds so novel, the man must be applying for a patent! Good on you Threelink! Best of luck!!
As to the machinery at Edge Hill, RGH Thomas The Liverpool and Manchester Railway 1980 provides mechanical details and drawings. The haulage rope: 6" in diameter, 4800 yards long, weighing 8½ tons. The main pulley, outer diameter 21 feet.
I can easily see burying tiny permanent rare earth magnets in a suitable "rope" and then using some sort of electromagnet on the carriage or wagon, energized by the rails. At the top of the incline, isolated non-powered rails permit the wagon to detach and the rope to continue alone.
Interestingly, in real life, the rope started and stopped to permit attaching and detaching of the carriages. Further, the carriages were hauled up hill at the incredible (for the time) speed of 15 mph!
Bee
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Hi Deem
So you have observed the lag as well. That means the lag is site wide and not merely something I experience.
I think the lag is the stressor that causes the double posts that our mods are laboring under. The response from Hornby's server doesn't come, the user thinks the post not submitted and presses the key again!
If my post is to include images, I typically type the entire message, then add in the pictures just before posting it. The only lag is at the very end. I've still been caught out and admonished.🤷♂️
Our mods in the trenches are on top of this. I think their solution will function, but it must not rely on the Hornby server to display the pop up box. Pressing "post" on your device should be sufficient to trigger it, not an acknowledgment from the server. That lag is the stressor!
Bee
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It is what a vendor does when something goes wrong, that is when you see into a vendor's heart.
High marks. Very high marks indeed Rapido.
Bee
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Hi Fish Man 👋
I'm in the USA, so ROW for me is £30. I sat straight up when I saw the £50 they are charging you. Yikes!
Yet any discussion of ROW should be accompanied by the VAT discount. I will take a 20% discount on the price, over £4 in UK P&P.
I'd like to also state that Hornby is charging very competitive ROW rates when compared to a freight forwarder. I went so far as to set up a FF account. My per package cost was going to be £28, compared to Hornby's £30. When you consider that item would not be VAT-free (Hornby ships to a FF in the UK, VAT applies), the FF account sits idle.
You do bring up an excellent point. I completely forgot about the various clubs providing yet another discount. These various discounts do add up. In my view, Hornby offers a reasonably competitive price for the service.
I'm satisfied with Hornby.
Bee
Beatles Rubber Soul wagon - Has anyone else got one like this??
in General Discussion
Posted
If it can be taken apart and put the right way round, then there is zero "misprint value".
If it can be put right, do so.
If not, and you want it right, contact Hornby Customer Service.
Bee