Is OO gauge live steam range given up?

[null_null981707818694]

I find the 00 gauge live steam range a wonderfull concept.

But has Hornby given up on it an us?

Why don't we see new things appear, or a healty stock that you can order from?

Same goes for spear parts and an refilments.

Seartching on their webside, it seems that they want to forget this range asap.

Sorry I have to say this, but after market is a real disaster with Hornby.

 

Cheers,

Danny

[96RAF]

The Live Steam range was taken from the catalogue years ago and there is no indication Hornby will ever restart the range, much to many peoples’ dissapointment.

Rob

[Go_West]

As RAF said gone for good if ever it was to come back it will look nothing like the first system and be much modified in control and design so not a comparable system. Getting spares for non steam models is getting harder some stockists have less and less so the complete picture of model railways is changing what happens in the future is any ones guess. 

[null_null981707818694]

This is what I thought that happend, typical Hornby.

They produce, and lets be honest, quite expencive system, making everybody warm to buy it, and then let their customars sit stone cold.

I would understand that new ranges are stoped due to expencive production costs and not big enough audiance.

But at least see to it, that refilments and spare parts are availeble for the costomers who did the investment.

Sorry to say this, and I'm being polite here, customer services are hard to find at Hornby.

Instead they let their customars solve everything under them self in a forum, that's cheap!

Who can tell me witch oil is the alternative?

Cheers,

Danny

[NWR-Gordon-4]

The Live Steam range is long gone. I can’t see it ever coming back, despite the demand for the Live Steam locomotives that were produced. I would eat one of my dirty socks, if Hornby ever brought back Live Steam.

 

If it was ever brought back, it would be need to be much easier to control and the price was around £500.00 for each locomotive when they were produced around 14 years ago, so the RRP for Live Steam today would well over £1,000.00, which is limiting the market to only a small percentage of buyers.

 

I don’t believe it was very successful, hence why it was discontinued. Maybe the cost of each locomotive to buy, reflected on this and the difficulty to control a locomotive.

 

GNR-Gordon-4

[Go_West]

This is what I thought that happend, typical Hornby.

They produce, and lets be honest, quite expencive system, making everybody warm to buy it, and then let their customars sit stone cold.

I would understand that new ranges are stoped due to expencive production costs and not big enough audiance.

But at least see to it, that refilments and spare parts are availeble for the costomers who did the investment.

Sorry to say this, and I'm being polite here, customer services are hard to find at Hornby.

Instead they let their customars solve everything under them self in a forum, that's cheap!

Who can tell me witch oil is the alternative?

Cheers,

Danny

hi 

try looking up Premium Steam Oil Componded 460 it works for me and you get 1 ltr for about £7.00

Ken

[walkingthedog]

I wonder if the Live Steam product was popular. If it had been surely it would have continued. I know quite a lot of railway modellers but not one who purchased Live Steam. 

 

I thought it was a fantastic product but didn't buy it because I think it needs it’s own layout and I didn’t have the space. 

[NWR-Gordon-4]

I don't think it was popular WTD. One reason it was discontinued. This was probably due to how difficult they were to use and the coast of them, when they were in production.

 

I agree with you. If one wanted the complete Live Steam set, they would need their own layout. To me this just can't be mixed with standard OO Gauge locomotives, despite the standard range and Live Steam range being the same gauge of OO.

 

GNR-Gordon-4

[PlanesTV]

Hornby Live Steam was launched in 2003 and sales at first were tremendous but fell sharply as the brand got a reputation for being difficult to control. A4 production stopped in 2004 but they only finally sold out in 2011.

I bought my first A4 in 2009, loved it and started taking LS to model railway shows in 2010 in a crusade to get Hornby to promote them. I couldn't understand why Hornby were not demonstrating them - viewers loved them but I was finding lots of people who had had them, crashed them and given up. Dealers I spoke to were often venomous having had customers bring them back either under guarantee - "wouldn't work properly" or wanting to trade them in. Second hand prices were rock bottom.

A small group of us fans started the OO Live Steam Club for self support should Hornby ever cease support. Incidentally, that support has been exemplary. Locos long out of guarantee were repaired FOC or for a very low price. 

But, why did I enjoy my purchases when others had nothing but problems? It was 2 or 3 years before I found out........

I NEVER GOT AN INSTRUCTION BOOK!

I first bought a loco only - they dont come with instructions - and a second hand controller with hand-typed xeroxed instructions. When I actually read the Hornby Operator's Manual a couple of years later I realised why owners had such problems.

IF YOU FOLLOW THE ADVICE AND INSTRUCTIONS IN THE HORNBY OPERATOR'S MANUAL YOU WILL CRASH YOUR LOCOMOTIVE.

The OO Live Steam Club Roadshow invites people to 'Have a go' and we have had 4 year olds finding them perfectly easy to control.

One of Hornby's directors recently said to us "We let a halo product go".

But all is not lost - there are over 10,000 models out there waiting for a new lease of life with owners who have the correct instructions courtesy of the OO Live Steam Club.

/media/tinymce_upload/d1a59ff15bc2925aabcd029783ca425a.jpg 

  and check this link

[Go_West]

I also share your thoughts and I think with any evaluation in time electronics and the engineering would have improved as with any product the A3 design is much better than the A4 design and the last A3 locos built were the best for many reasons so even under the Hornby name things were changing but once the bad name for the product was out there it was time to stop production and invest on the standard electric models. As many know I have some 7 engines built around the better A4 engine. Over the years I seen most engineering item that carried a tag that slowed the sales of there product like Vauxhall back in the 50's were known as rust buckets Ford were just tinny cars Austin were Grandad cars, Vespa were hair dryers not motor bikes the list goes on so this type of tag is hard to shake off And is one reason why they will not be coming back.

Ken

[PlanesTV]

Agreed Ken with Vauxhall, Ford and Austin - I was there!

But Hornby Live Steam's reputation for unreliability and being difficult to control is unfair. They are VERY easy to control. We have 4 year olds doing it at our Roadshows.

If Hornby "recalled" all unused or "Run Once" locos, ostensively to check for safety, and returned them to the market with a new DVD, Instructions and maybe even the OO LIve Steam Club's new controller (it improves on Hornby's) then they wouldn't need to make any more - just test the market by recycling what is, effectively, new stock.

I'll bet you these "refreshed" locos would fetch a premium on ebay and worth paying, say, £50 to have done.

Covers costs, starts to repair an unfounded reputation and tests the market for new production.

Idea?

[walkingthedog]

I had a go on your layout at Ally Pally a few years ago PlanesTV, at least I think it was there. Very impressive. 

[null_null981707818694]

Well, I bought the Mallard starters set, and a loose Flying Scotsman, and joined the OO live steam club.

Those guys are super helpful and I hope to meet them soon in one of the evends they attend.

It's indeed more difficult to operate it, than a DCC locomotive.

But what did you expect this is live steam, and with some practice these run fine and are fun to opperate, I'm glad I bougt it.

There are even people who have proven you can run it on DCC, so that's also no excuse not to make them.

I do hope that Hornby will make an efford to those who believe in the system and produce a new model.

It would at least show that they care about the customers who they sold it to in the first place.

Of course, I know that it will hardly be, that Hornby ever will go that direction again, but one must keep hoping. 😎

 

[Go_West]

Well, I bought the Mallard starters set, and a loose Flying Scotsman, and joined the OO live steam club.

Those guys are super helpful and I hope to meet them soon in one of the evends they attend.

It's indeed more difficult to operate it, than a DCC locomotive.

But what did you expect this is live steam, and with some practice these run fine and are fun to opperate, I'm glad I bougt it.

There are even people who have proven you can run it on DCC, so that's also no excuse not to make them.

I do hope that Hornby will make an efford to those who believe in the system and produce a new model.

It would at least show that they care about the customers who they sold it to in the first place.

Of course, I know that it will hardly be, that Hornby ever will go that direction again, but one must keep hoping. 😎

 When train sets came out years back it was a simple system basically an electric motor and a variabled resistor when this was updated to electronic controls it made no difference to the system each engine would run with ether control system but now the DCC controller needs the engine to have electric units wired inside with sound therefore unless the older engines have these changes they will no longer run on this new system and live steam if relaunched would not be the same as the old system but a completely different system and build Which might not be compatible or converte. But people will always find a fault with the live steam system and price is one I do not see Hornby putting money into live steam any time soon as they need to concentrate on turning the company around with a good base product that does sell well.

 

[PlanesTV]

Gowest you say " I do not see Hornby putting money into live steam any time soon as they need to concentrate on turning the company around with a good base product that does sell well."

I agree with you completely

But if Hornby was a car manufacturer that had sold thousands of a perfectly good car that owners couldn't drive because of a simple set up problem and those cars now were mostly stuck in peoples garages hardly used they wouldn't need to put them back into production, just work up a trade in scheme, revise the set-up and re-release them into the market.

They might even make a lot of money doing it.

[walkingthedog]

Hornby aren’t a car manufacturer/retailer.  They like many toy companies from Lego to Toys R Us they are in not exactly in a position to spend hundreds of thousand of pounds restarting a product that has a niche market. I'm afraid there is little point in asking them to resurrect things from the past. Just be thankful they are still able, at the moment, to produce things for the future. 

[NWR-Gordon-4]

WTD, LEGO is a manufacturer and Toys "R" Us is retailer, but it won't be soon, as they are closing down for good, just like Maplin are. Soon there won't be any shops left in the UK!  😆

 

GNR-Gordon-4

[Fishmanoz]

Given what’s been said on here, there seems there should be a market for a refurbishment service and operator training to get the existing models out of the engine shed?

[walkingthedog]

Yes Jacob I am aware of that which is why I said what I said. Almost all companies with connections to the toy trade are in trouble. I think perhaps Hornby will be able to afford to resurrect older products in the future but at present are really struggling just to keep their heads above water. Take a look at their share price. 

[The son of Triangman]

Live steam didn't fall because of it's reputation for being difficult to control.  It was a premium product squarely aimed at those with disposable cash in a marketplace that is very price driven. It is unlikely that such a premium product will be restarted whilst the market is in poor shape and Hornby are fighting to get back into the Black.  For now live steam is a dead technology, one day again maybe who knows.

 

Prices for secondhand models are going crazy on the likes of Ebay as time goes on, people profiteering on the models is commonplace.  It will only harm the market for these models in the long term, some will remember "Wrenn mania" when anything in any condition with Wrenn on went beserk pricewise, prices for Wrenn sky rocketted, then came the crash in prices and people were desperate to offload and prices have fallen outside of the online auction sites to an all time low.  Wrenn models simply got overpriced by investors and became a niche market model affordable by only those with a lot of spare cash, this wasn't substainable in the long term and the crash happended in the prices.  The same will happen with live steam in time. For now greed rules in prices for secondhand Hornby live steam.

[NWR-Gordon-4]

@walkingthedog

 

 

The biggest reason why so many big store chains and big brands are struggling, is a mainly due to the Internet. To many people buy on the Internet these days. 1, because it’s cheaper and 2, you haven’t got to go anywhere to get the item. You haven‘t got to the leave the house to purchase the item, that you want.

 

Another could be because of VAT, as to the reason of expensive toys and hobby products. Look at the price of any toy. It’s sold at a crazy price, all because a toy is classed as a ‘luxury‘ item, when really it isn’t a luxury item. Most toys are not good quality,  yet still costing a months wages to buy. VAT is to be blamed for low sales of toys and hobbies.

 

I’m hoping Hornby Hobbies are doing alright, owning the brands, such as Hornby, Airfix, Scalextric, Corgi and Humbrol.

 

GNR-Gordon-4

[The son of Triangman]

I agree GNR Gordon, the internet has been and will remain a big killer of bricks and mortar shops even if they have a webshop, other big killers are business rates, insurance, utility bills, VAT and lack of customer support.

 

I for one aren't intending to start a bricks and mortar shop again when I re-open, a home shed based workshop will be enough and a cabinet in a busy antiques centre for displaying used and new models will do nicely.

 

WTD makes good points as well about oo live steam being a premium price product which limited OO live steams appeal at the time of issue.

 

Over 50,000 bricks and mortar retailers are on the point of going under according to UK official governement stats, with others not far behind.

 

 

[PlanesTV]

Believe me. The Son of Triangman, I have spoken to hundreds of original Hornby Live Steam owners at the OO Live Steam Roadshows and the most common comment has been lack of control, crash, get rid or mothball. Mothball usually because trade-in values had so slumped that it was best to hang on.

 

Look at ebay sales and note how many are "run once", "test run only" and "hardly used". Direct evidence that owners had an unsatifactory start. 

 

We (the OO Live Steam Club) have sales records that show a huge peak for 2004 then a dramatic decline with ever decreasing upward blips as each Christmas came and went. The final blip was 2010 when Hornby dumped the last of their stock to 2KT and Nauticalia. The demise was nothing to do with high prices - they couldn't even move them at £99.99 yet they sold container loads at £500 when it all started.

 

But that poor reputation was unfair.

 

They got that reputation because (in no particular order)

 

• sold as a train set buyers expected to connect it up, plug it in and run. Out the box. It doesn't!
• Hornby didn't make it clear they need running-in over several half hour steamings to run smoothly.
• The Operator's Manual says learning on the track oval supplied is the best way to learn. It isn't.
• Hornby should have but never have recommended that first-timers start on a rolling road. 
• Radius 3 supplied in the set is too tight for newcomers.
• The instructions on Page 27 "Setting the locomotive in motion" are wrong and probably cause a crash.
• Attempting to run on an existing 12v circuit will almost certainly be disastrous because 12v circuits will almost certainly not transmit a continuous 6 amps of power. The locos get their commands to open or close the throttle by voltage drop. On a 12v circuit locos will appear to have a will of their own, accelerating, stopping abruptly, even going into uncommanded reverse. Not the locos fault.
• The DVD supplied with the set was made with 12v locos with fake smoke. Live steam locos will not do what locos in the DVD are shown to be doing because:-
• there is a 5 second lag in the valve mechanics to slow down after speeding up (and vice versa) so:-
• it is impossible to reverse onto your coaches and pull away in 2 seconds. It takes at least 15 seconds.
• it is impossible to speed up and slow down quickly on a small circuit to take account of gradients
• Every loco is different. Sometimes very different. Owners might think one is faulty. They are not.
• Owners talked to each other and through dealers and reinforced the unfair conclusions
• Hornby's superb Service Department returned apparently faulty items quickly and inexpensively (usually free) but never told owners what they had done - often nothing because they wern't faulty!

 

If only the advice in the original Operator's Manual had been "Run in and learn on a rolling road" then, even with the other errors in the manual, owners would not have crashed their expensive new masterpieces, would probably have learned the joy of something that actually mimics the real thing, warts and all.

 

There was so much potential development in OO Live Steam that, today, it could have dominated the hobby.

 

An opportunity missed yes but, I repeat, with 10,000 plus out there virtually new there is a chance to recall them and reissue them with the benefit of all the hindsight we now have. New instructions. New DVD. New youtube demos. Maybe even an improved controller that the OO Live Steam Club has managed to design and produce for sale at just £50.

 

OK they wont get Papyrus and double-tender Flying Scotsman traded in because they are fetching a premium with collectors but Mallard sets are going on average for around £400. That's what they made most of.

 

No big new investment needed to potentially change and grow the whole model railway market.

 

A fabulous opportunity to change Hornby's fortunes. It has that in its grasp today. I sincerely hope a Hornby Director is reading this.

Adrian Campbell

Chairman

OO Live Steam Club

 

[NWR-Gordon-4]

@The son of Triangman

 

 

I have never heard of them as a bricks and mortar shop. That's very funny.  😆

 

I do honestly thing in a few years, in 10 years or less, there won't be such thing as a physical shop. Everybody buys everything over the Internet. Even the weekly grocery shop will be bought over the internet. There will be no shops, corner shops or supermarkets anywhere. I can see this coming. It will be sad if it does, but it wouldn't surprise me, with how Internet shopping has been closing shops down and branded shops names down, for good.

 

GNR-Gordon-4

[The son of Triangman]

I have heard stories about it's problems agreed. For now sadly oo live steam as a manufacturing product is a dead technology. Yes there is a club and well done for those trying to keep it alive and in the public eye.

 

Prices of used items on the likes of Ebay are detering people coming into oo live steam, no way would I pay for instance £2600 for a model as somone did recently on ebay.   It was always an expensive niche product and was mainly bought for dust collectors cabinets. Now prices are going bonkers on ebay for the models and people are cashing the models in to make a fast buck and there are mugs that have disposable cash to pay the over inflated prices.

 

If it does come back at some time it needs some big improvements so it can be used more easily, can be used on a 12V or even a dcc system and at an affordable price. At the moment it is like a saying for a famous closed line "perchance it sleepeth", maybe one day OO live steam will rise from the grave as the closed line is very slowly doing.