Loading gauge

[HO3.5]

Would it be possible for all of Hornby's International brands products to be identified as if they were suitable for British Railways? Although they can be described as suitable for OO/HO, as is well known, the loading gauges of different countries railways can be different and therefore the models of a different size. A comparison of the original Lima HO Class 33 and its later OO Class 33 being a good example.

A simple 'as seen on B.R.' would suffice or 'as used on international freight traffic'.

As Hornby seems to be embracing it's international brands more, maybe when introducing new models, it should keep an eye on the future and consider ones that were/are seen on the continent and the U.K.?

Re-introduce the Jouef HO Eurostar for instance or rebox/rebrand/relivery the Mehano HO Class 66?

 

 

 

[walkingthedog]

HO models of UK locos are considerably smaller than their OO equivalents so in my view  would  look odd. I have somewhere an HO TGV and I remember the few times I ran it it looked very small.

 

Are you actually just wanting  to know what foreign locos/trains run in the UK.

[ellocoloco]

Hi HO3.5 and welcome to the forum.

 

I don't quite follow what you are asking above but if you want to know what rolling stock is suitable for both the UK and continent, have a look at the British HO scale society's website. I don't believe that Hornby Int'l currently offer any HO stock that could be simply re-liveried for UK operators. The Jouef Eurostar in HO has not been produced since the brand was acquired by Hornby and the Electrotren ferry wagons are of questionable accuracy. The only HO model produced recently I can think of that could be offered in UK colours would be Rivarossi's S100 USATC tank engine.

 

On the other hand, Hornby have of late been offering OO scale models of European operators with a Romanian Class 92 in 2019 and has announced a Hungarian Class 56 for 2020. Previously the OO Class 66 was offered by Lima as an HGK variant and the Class 92 in SNCF colours. There are a lot more Hornby OO models that are suitable for International operators than there are Hornby Int'l models that are suitable for UK operators. The OO Class 20, 37, 56, 58, 66, 87, 92 and Eurostar (and probably others) could legitimately be offered in the colours of non UK operators. 

 

If you have built a 16.5mm gauge model railway to OO standards, then HO models should have no issues. If your model has been built to HO standards then running OO models may present some load gauge issues as you suggest. Things may be described as suitable for both OO and HO, but that only really works for trees and ballast.............

 

With regards to the Mehano 66, I would not expect Hornby to rebox/rebrand it for the UK as Mehano are a separate outfit. On the other hand, Heljan offer a number of OO scale models and produce an HO Class 66..............The question any model company must ask is 'is there a demand for RTR British outline HO scale models', and the answer is probably no.

 

( I have a Mehano 66 and its a nice model. One day it just might get re-liveried........)

[bill7437]

Interesting to see however in the Rivarossi HO range for 2020 three British Rail bogie wagons  presumably Channel Tunnel  wagons running to the UK - from illustrations in the 2020 catalogue though it is not really apparent if they carry the CT logo - I wonder how well these will sell!!!!!

[ellocoloco]

@bill7437

 

I missed those as I glanced through the latest catalogue...............

 

I wonder if they are correct UK load gauge wagons or a hopefull re-livery of a Continental prototype? The photo on the previous page of the VTG version does look Continental to me. Also surprising they are under Rivarossi and not Jouef - after all they would arrive in France.

[bill7437]

I think a hopeful relivery of a Continental prototype, Hornby International brand marketing beats me !!!! Again can't see much of a demand for these but I could really be surprised.

[bill7437]

I have now verified that these 2020 Rivarossi British Rail wagons carry the anchor mark for train ferry usage.

[Tim M]

I think a hopeful relivery of a Continental prototype, Hornby International brand marketing beats me !!!! Again can't see much of a demand for these but I could really be surprised.

Hi Bill, You could be surprised - we made other British outline liveries, or liveries of Continental rolling stock which travelled into the UK through the Tunnel, Ferries or ports from 2008-2011 and they all sold out.

[Buz]

hi all

Surely to run with Hornby trains and look right any transcontinental ferry vans etc would have to be made in OO scale as a Hornby OO product rather than Hornby international HO product.

Lets not forget the European rolling stock is in fact larger than the UK stock as Europe has a larger loading gauge than the UK and is only smaller in model form because it is in fact modeled at a smaller scale and looks stupid next to UK OO scale models.

Also real cross channel rolling stock is / was in effect custom built to fit in the smaller UK loading gauge so should sit well with the Traditional Hornby range but if made to the European scale of HO it will be much too small.

Hornby has in the past made transcontinental stock like the ferry vans I see no reason why Hornby cannot  produce OO scale transcontinental stock again as part of the normal Hornby range.

Given the amount of trade between the two it makes perfect sense that an amount of transcontinental stock should be produced, perhaps including some of the earlier stock as well like the transcontinental furgones (spelling) that ran in Southern territory and wooden open wagons as part of the Hornby OO range.

That's my 50c worth on it.

regards John

[bill7437]

Hear Hear,  the difference in loading gauge is most apparent - an easy way for Hornby to sell an HO wagon in a UK market.

[LCDR]

This extract from the 1977 UIC regulations gives some idea of the differences in actual permitted sizes between vehicles permitted to operate throughout Europe (except Britain) left, and vehicles which may operate on British Railways right.

 

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[The Duke 71000]

Loading Gauge and other International technical coupling issues 

Even going back before World War Two, there were a number of British vehicle types that were designed so they could go to the Continent, and a number of European railways had vehicles suitable to come to Britain. Via either the Dover-Dunkirk or Harwich-Hook of Holland train ferries. 

 

Due to different braking systems both sides of the channel, and Alpine altitude problems affecting brakes, along with coupling differences, not to mention various loading gauges, there was a wealth of technical problems that had to be catered for on International rail vehicles. This being the original major raison detre for the existence of UIC (The International Union of Railways), to which the railways of Britain were members. 

 

Loading Gauge issues

As Britain has the smallest Loading Gauge, made effectively worse by the fact that the Southern Railway also had the smallest general loading gauge of any of the Big Four railways, the issue was somewhat simplified. Europe basically had to build to the Southern Railway Loading gauge any vehicle they intended to send to Britain. On the other hand virtually any British vehicle was by default small enough not to exceed any European loading Gauge.

 

 

One modern problem are the British designed Class 92 Bi-voltage Electric locos which were designed for limited use in France. The 3rd rail shoes for 750v DC collection through Kent, had to be fully retractable as it was discovered they interfered with the French rail side AWS system, by shoving 750v DC into it, which obviously messed up the French signalling. Which for some odd reason the French didn't appreciate !

  

A number of British railways even before the Grouping in 1923 had built limited numbers of various wagon types suited for use on the continent. In the 1930's the introduction of the "Night Ferry" London to Paris & Brussels overnight sleeping car service was a joint effort involving the French "Wagon Lits" & the British Southern Railway which required French style sleepers and catering vehicles. Which Wagon Lits ordered from the British Metropolitan Carriage & Wagon Company. This through service continued until about 1972.   

 

Couplings

The European Screw Link coupling has a narrower hole in the "chain" because the hook it goes over is slightly narrower. So British Freight Guards were trained that the British coupling MUST be used to couple to foreign vehicles to avoid foreign couplings jamming on the thicker British hook. Otherwise it was possible for wagons to become derailed. 

 

 

Alpine brake lever.

International wagons both British & European have an "Alpine Switch" as its called. This lever located usually on the vehicle chassis side, must be set for "Lowland" when the wagon is in Britain, and must be checked when wagons are offloaded onto British soil. This "switch" is designed to cope with the problems of high altitudes in the Alps which otherwise reduce the braking capacity of Air brakes.    .   

 

Air & Vacuum brakes

Both Air & vacuum brakes were traditionaly fitted to International vehicles, as both types were found in various countries including Britain. However the problem was complicated because British Rail adopted a safer two pipe Air Brake system with a main reservoir pipe as well as the Brake pipe. These had to be clearly (colour) marked to indicate which was which, to avoid delay and confusion in Europe. In Europe only an air brake pipe was normal, meaning brake actuation was usually noticeably slower. Vacuum pipes were marked blue, Air brake pipe red, and Air Main reservor pipe yellow.

 

Foreign wagons entering Britain only having a single air brake pipe system, can however work when connected to the British "Brake pipe". Such vehicles when included in a British freight train were supposed to be put behind any British air brake fitted Wagons. This was to reduce the problem of the slower braking reaction of the foreign wagons, which would therefore tend to "buffer up" to the quicker braking reaction of the British wagons ahead. Care however had to be taken by the Driver to avoid snatching when opening the power handle or the was an increased possibility of breaking the couplings. 

 

 

Corridor Connections on International coaching stock.

Obviously the "Night Ferry" overnight sleeping car train between London & Paris & Brussels presented more technical issues. Neither the BSS (British Standard Suspension) gangway or the British Pullman gangway were used outside Britain. The Night Ferry coaching stock and the accompanying "Ferry Vans" were built in Britain to general French "Wagon Lits" designs, but made slightly smaller to suit the British loading gauge.

 

To deal with the corridor gangway problem, the standard French type connection fitted to the sleeping cars, were so designed that a special (British) adaptor plate could be attached to the end vehicles so a British Southern Railway or BR design carriage with Pullman corridor connections could be coupled to the train during it British journey as required. BR even went as far as altering a couple of Mk1 coaches with a French type gangway one end, to reduce time delays at the ports hanging the adaptor plates onto the French vehicle. These Mk1 coaches were of course confined to the "Night Ferry" service, and spent the rest of their time in Stewarts Lane depot.

 

Night Ferry Power connections.

In steam days there was little problem with regard to coach lighting or other electrical necessities, as these Wagon Lits vehicles had batteries and dynamos, and were hauled both sides of the channel by steam locos. But when BR electrified Kent with the 750v DC third rail and introduced the Class 71 electric locomotives, a facility to power the Wagon Lits coaches for lighting at least resulted in an adaptor to connect the British locos to the French lighting connection without problem.

 

 

The Anchor sign

The Anchor sign is prominently applied to wagons and certain coaching stock when it is suited for use with train ferries. You must remember there were train ferries in other locations such as that between Germany and Denmark & Sweden. The anchor sign was intended to show that the vehicles had the necessary deck chaining points to secure rail vehicles to the train deck of the ship, as obviously the ships had no way of controlling any type of train brakes.  

 

The British-European train ferry ships

These ships proved very useful not just to transport wagons to and fro between Britain & Europe, and later with the introduction of the Night Ferry service before World War 2. But also to transship hundreds of locomotives and other military rail vehicles in both WW1 & WW2.

 

 

International Services.

In addition to the daily "Night Ferry" London Paris & Brussels service already mentioned. There have been many regular freight flows between Britain and the Continent, long before the Channel Tunnel was opened. In Kent close to Paddock Wood there was a large freight receiving Yard with large goods shed buildings for receiving Spanish (dual gauge) wagons bringing various types of fruit and vegetable from Spain. This service began pre-war, and certainly continued until the 1980's. There have also been regular freight flows between Britain and Northern Italy for fruit and veg.

 

From the 1970's until the Channel Tunnel opened there was a regular flow of petroleum products between Germany & Salisbury utilising German bogie tank wagons.  

 

In the late 1980's early 1990's a weekly consignment of British Antique furniture left Whimple (Devon) to travel to Germany in a  Bogie Ferrywagon. This was trip worked from Whimple to Exeter Riverside Yard where it was added to a Plymouth to Ashford service, before heading for the train ferry.

 

Oddball transits have included a complete British train headed by a Class 20 diesel with Mk1 coaches travelling via the train ferry all the way to Romania around 1990 after the Communist system collapsed, as a mercy mission to help with orphaned children. As such it was given special dispensation to travel. It was towed across France and part of Germany by those countries motive power, but then transited Poland to reach Romania under its own power. 

 

Since the Channel tunnel has opened a number of Class 37 diesels and various other British (non ferry vehicles) have "emigrated" to work hauling construction trains on both French & Spanish railways High-Speed lines.

 

The Duke 71000