Hornby limited edition

[Engine shed 1]

Do the Hornby limited edition engines have the limited ed number on the engine or is it just the certificate that comes with the engine if it is on the engine we're abouts is it

[5Dublo2]

Just a certificate in the box

[Engine shed 1]

OK no worries thanks for your reply I just wondered that's all thank you for your reply

[DBfan]

All releases nowadays are limited editions regardless of whether it says so on the box or not.

[Engine shed 1]

OK that's interesting thanks

[HornbyinNC]

Certificates started coming with some special edition models during the early 1990's, such as with the Royal Doulton plated locomotive collection. The numbers have never been applied to the models themselves.

One of the earliest official "special edition" models was actually not a locomotive, but rather the open Pugh & Co. open wagon which was made in enormous quantities during 1979; I believe as part of a "buy a locomotive, get a free wagon" promotion. The box did state it was a "special edition".

While a few models don't have any form of special edition status, such as the Pete Waterman collection of models, where only the box states, "Limited Edition", or the R068 version of the Black 5. Any models I have seen with-out any form of certificate, but listed as "limited edition" where always featured in Hornby catalogues.

Not all limited edition models, those not featured in catalogues, ever had certificates; some simply have a numbered label applied to the box, such as R2975 Britannia and others issued as a Collector Centre models.

Although, the vast majority of non-catalogued limited edition models do have certificates included in the packaging, as R2800 class 60 "Teenage Spirit", issued for Rail Express Magazine. These certificates usually include photocopied signatures of Simon Kohler and come in a variety of sizes and styles.

Meanwhile, a select few of the rarest truly limited edition models have inked signatures of Simon Kohler (eg R3083 Turkish 8F limited to 200 produced).

As can be seen, not all limited editions are really so limited. Many of the earlier models, especially, those produced during the 1990's had production runs of 5,000. More recent examples of limited editions have seen runs ranging from 1,000 to 2,500, as the recent R30231, MN "Queen Elizabeth" Jubilee Edition. Originally announced as a run of 1,000, they sold out in just over an hour! Consequently, the decision was made to raise the total to 2,500.

Personally, I look out for the limited edition models where possible. I have a number in my collection, as all the above referenced models and other rarities as Locomotion, "Harry Patch": some are quite desirable, while others, well just another T9, Castle, or whatever, with a different running number and name. Others, as R3165, "Lode Star" issued in conjunction with Steam Museum are issued as limited editions and a year or so later, appear in the catalogue with a new R number and packaged in regular boxes. That is infuriating...

[Anglia998]

Can HornbyinNC tell me if there is a difference between a limited edition and a special edition?

Between 2002 and 2015 models of locos. at the N.R.M. were marketed as Special Editions

Models in the "Legends Series" of 2011 were sold as Limited Editions.

[DarkRedCape]

My understanding between the two was a limited edition was a train that may have had no real significant importance in real life, but it was limited in 00 due to it being Dublo, steam generating, or it was a set of some kind, etc etc.

Special edition was when the loco has some affiliation with a museum or a trust or a heritage line. The Queen Jubilee for example was affiliated with the Royal Trust. Or to mark a special occasion, such as 100 years of Hornby, that kind of thing.

Could be completely wrong however.

[HornbyinNC]

Honestly, never noticed Hornby using the word, “special”, as much as they did “limited”.

Would appear more of a marketing approach than anything else? Guess that’s a good question for Simon Kohler, the man who signed the certificates.

[AndyMac1707817969]

A limited edition by its nature is a low production run so is only ever going to be repaint / renumber of an existing or soon to exist loco or item of rolling stock. Sooner or later you will get it pop up again with some minor difference different as a production version. I purchased the first DP1 from the NRM when it was released thing it was limited but this was followed by about another 3 batches mainly just in a different box. Never quite sure why they issue a certificate, it would not take me more than about 30 minutes to knock off a descent copy of the certificate, the loco would take a lot longer

I seem to remember a Hornby authorized reseller once telling me that when a retailer releases an exclusive model they are guaranteed 36 months exclusivity before it can be released as a mainstream model. This would fit with items such as the Drax Biomass hoppers which were released exclusively through Hattons back in 2019 with the next release of R60176 and R60177 three years later, all of which are already sold out on pre-order so I guess we will see lots more releases in years to come.

[HornbyinNC]

Today I looked through my own collection to see which ones are labelled "limited edition" vs "special edition". I was actually quite surprised of my findings.

Most, but not all, of the Collector Club models I have are labelled "limited", yet others are identified as "special". Most, but not all have certificates, or printed labels with sequential production numbers and yet it appears quite arbitrary as to how they are marked.

My NRM Locomotion "Flying Scotsman" models R3080 and R3081 are both labelled "Special Edition" and both have certificates while neither showed up in a Hornby catalogue. Hornby did in turn re-issue both models in what appears to be identical packaging, but numbered R3099 and R3100, less than a few months later, on general release, but these had no certificates. For what it is worth, I don't believe Hornby used the gloss finish on the general release models.

I found in my collection a gold plated "Princess Elizabeth" R2215, definitely a catalogue item and identified as "limited", but made in quite high production numbers.

R3209 "Bucklebury Grange is marked as "special" and was sold through Harrods with a certifcate. Meanwhile, R3298 was on general release within a very short period of time. Only difference, the box was printed indicating it to be "special edition of 200" special to Harrod's.

My conclusion, AndyMac is likely correct in stating "limited" only means a three year window without others being produced. A case in point, confirming this is class 91, "Battle of Britain - Lest we Forget", issued as limited for Rails Express in 2012, now showing up in the near future, albeit in vastly improved model as R30166.

It really takes the crap out of collector values for any models marked "limited", or "special".

[AndyMac1707817969]

I guess Limited Edition just means a limited number of that production run, it can be a numbered limited edition or an unnumbered limited edition. Often limited editions never appear in the catalogue but then again items that are not a limited edition do not either. Many years ago Hornby produced R2199M a train pack in the maroon coronation loco and coaches. There were 3 additional coaches produced R4141, R4141A and R4142 which in themselves were not a limited edition but never appeared in any catalogue.

I guess whoever commissions a limited edition or limited run of an item only get exclusive distribution rights, everything else stays with Hornby to do with as they wish at a later date.

 

The number produced does not always determine value, you mentioned R3083 Turkish 8F limited to 200. Comes up on eBay from time to time. One last month failed to attract any bids at £250 though subsequently sold for £275 as a buy it now. Well below what you might expect.

The R3001 class 91, "Battle of Britain - Lest we Forget" was selling for over £500 but has now dropped back, the last one selling for a mere £150 since the one now due next year was announced. As soon as any new model, especially limited editions are announced you always see all the old ones appear on eBay very soon after as people try and offload their prior investment. When Bachmann announced their DBSO in Network Rail and Anglia One livery on came a load of repaints from their existing BR blue & grey and Scotrail liveried ones. Ironically having repainted them they were then only a fraction of the value had they left them in their original livery and just waited for what was inevitably going to be produced at a later date.

[HornbyinNC]

AndyMac; so right you are about values.

The title "limited / special" editions appear to be thrown around and determined by the marketing department on an arbitrary basis. Yes, I too am aware of many uncatalogued models released over the years that are neither limited or special. That would include the Rocket and Lord of the Isles presentation sets of the 1980's, both quite common. Until the recently released Rocket hit the market, that set sold at highly inflated prices on eBay.

Further pertaining to value, as you allude, when using eBay, it is a crap shot as to whether the model will sell, or not. Currently, the "Queen Elizabeth II" MN appears to be holding at around $400.00 to $450.00-USD, a far cry from the first ones going in excess of $1,000.00, but the bottom would drop out over-night, if Hornby should decide to make it a general release in the 2023 catalogue, or even decided to rerun it as "limited" with a different catalogue number and black name plates!

As my original comment made note, both these terms appear strongly rooted in the 1990's efforts to stimulate sales. I am sure that at the time, the marketing department sat in a meeting and decided, "people will buy should they think it is rare and collectable" and their logic has obviously proven successful!

[Anglia998]

Regular contributors to this forum may know that I maintain a database of Triang/Hornby steam locomotives. The DB includes sets. At present the total of individual locos and sets is 1,995.

Of these, 344 have never appeared in a catalogue. Of these 344, 239 have never featured in the Hornby Collector magazine.

Out of the total of 1995, I have 234 down as Limited Editions. 82 of these are "Packs"

I also have 74 down as Special Editions of which 13 are "Packs"

Having done this bit of research, I confess to some surprise at these figures.

John

[DBfan]

I think Hornby choose the term Limited or Special depending on what they feel like. The limited/special models do not always hold their value after the initial rush and interest . People are often very disappointed when they come to sell their models later on.

[96RAF]

I have heard of folk buying Bachmann wooden boxed LE models and asking for the box to be ditched to save postage as it adds little to the future value.

LE and SE only mean anything if they are so numbered on the item (1/250) and backed up by certificated provenance telling of why the item is so special. Just making a short production run of 1000 does not mean a model is Special in any way only Limited in numbers on the streets.

[ColinB]

I suppose it is like anything, if it is rare and a lot of people want it then the price goes up. Just watch an episode of "Bangers and Cash" and you will see my point. I sold a couple of limited edition locos from the 1980s/1990s the tender driven ones and they didn't fetch that much. I have known people buy special edition cars ( usually when the model is the last of the current style and the manufacturer wants to get rid of those expensive bits) and be hugely disappointed when they fetch not much more second hand than the standard model. So my attitude has always been, buy it because you like it and if it is worth a lot more when you sell it that is a bonus.

[Topcat1707821625]

I sold a "Pete Waterman" Royal Scot that had never been out of its box, for the daughter of a friend who died, but it didn't fetch a huge amount.

I shall never understand why people feel the need to buy the latest thing as soon as it's on sale, like the saddoes who queue overnight to buy the latest iPhone. In the case of mobile phones I guess it's just so they can show off to their friends.

[VESPA]

I think Limited Edition is purely a sales ploy. Limited to 2500 units is about the full production run. I have a few specials worth about the same as normal versions. One I bought Ltd from Beatties with a free teddy bear, 501 Squadron. It sits in a cabinet never run. Probably worth about £50 if I am lucky. I am pondering an "exclusive" at present at £190. That may be a better buy as new locos are only available with a mortgage.

[ColinB]

People do that with a new model of car when if you work in the industry you realise that it is best to wait a while until they "iron out" the bugs. More so now with all the software involved. Quite often it is a good idea to buy the previous model as it gets super seeded by the new one as all the issues have probably been fixed. As to locos, I buy a lot of the older ones although they must have the motor in the loco. I run DCC with sound so generally it means modifying the loco to tender connection to put the decoder in the tender as there is more room. I must admit though I compared my old Railroad Evening Star against the brand new one and it is substantially better, but it is an awful lot more money.

[atom3624]

I never used to like to be 'one of the first' with a new model - agreed with bug ironing out - look at the early Hornby W1's - bogie placement disasters!

I'm actually perhaps the only person locally with an 11G Civic - nothing wrong straight out of the box, fantastic car, but that's Honda.

Back to mention of Bachmann boxes and limited editions - I like the boxes and keep the 'certificates' which come with the locomotives, but when reading other production-related threads, these so-called limited runs seem little different to normal production runs - many are 2,000 or even 5,000 when it appears normal production runs are seldom more than 5,000 anyway.

I don't think there's one locomotive I 'haven't made mine' in one way or another, and all always get run, so the idea of purchase and keep in a sealed box is alien to me, and always will be.

Al.

[VESPA]

Slightly off topic, but I once bought a LTD Edition Vauxhall new. What made it ltd., was lousy paintwork and numerous faults that were persistant until I got shut. The other thing about Ltd editions is, if a dealer has commissioned it the 2-3 years later it goes to mass production. Rails and Hattons are masters of that game and masters of upping prices. Save now, pay later! Or pay through the nose and save later. You take your choice.