Dc HM6000 track mat issues with points etc.

[Matty1707822508]

Hi I have had the Hornby Flying Scotsman and over time built to track pack f and am extending on basically diagonal ends, one that will via a curved point where the engine she delves off to the left and the on opposite end where the siding goes off I’ve installed a curved point there to run track all the way to where I’m gonna extend base board buy a bit. But that basically runs parallel to siding and behind engine shed. Going for bridge ect. To the point I apologise I’ve just bought the HM6000 and though I have the HM6010 I can’t use it cause of power pack issue that’ll hopefully be fix asap but basically prior to the hm6000 there where some drop out spots but layout worked fine no matter wat point I manually selected due to link wire I could run two locos as I’m trying stay dc though eventually when I can afford it goto dcc. But when I flicked a point for a train to go from inner two outta loop it just shut down saying polarity issues. I do still have the link wires and also know have two power tracks for inner and outta loop which I don’t think u can do?! This maybe my problem I really don’t know. If there a schematic of how to wire it correctly so I can actually control two locos separately as that the whole point of the app I think. I just have no knowledge on insulating fishplates or how all that works I sorta get polarity to an extent but very limited this is my first build. Any help would b fantastic and greatly appreciated thanks so much for ur time

[Fishmanoz]

Hi Matty, sounds to me like you have a polarity issue between your ovals. What that means is that on one of your links at least in each oval you have as an example Track A to the left track on one oval and Track A to the right track on the other. The result is that as soon as you change your points to run from one oval to the other, you get a short circuit and the system shuts down.

To fix that, all you have to do is swap the offending track connections.

You can have as many track power connections as you like but all must be the same polarity. That means if you start from your HM6000 say on the Track A output, then if this connects to the left rail through your power track or clip or link wire, then at all other power connections, Track A must also go to the left rail.

To find the offending one/s where Track A is connected to the right rail (or Track B connected to the left rail), you can use one of three methods:

• disconnect your power connections one by one until the fault goes away, then the reversed one is the last one disconnected
• start at any one and trace round to every other one until you find the one swapped
• if you know how to use and have a multimeter, put it on volts range and check the polarity of each power connection until you find the one reversed

Hope you can follow that?

[96RAF]

Have a read of this guide which has the connections schematic you need, https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/getting-started-sets-and-track-mat-expansion-packs-322713 , but you also need to get your head around the need for isolating rail joiners (IRJs) between the cross-over points loop to loop.

All is well with two controllers (HM6000 channel A and B) controlling two loops but as soon as you reverse direction on one of them you create a short.

Also be aware that there was a bad batch of Hornby points which shorted when switched and this may be your problem as you extended the layout. See here for how to check them out. https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/faq-why-does-throwing-my-hornby-point-short-circuit-trip-my-controller

[Matty1707822508]

Appreciate ur help greatly everyone and yes I do have to try understand the isolating joiners, Do I need them on all points or just where loops cross and so u have to flick switch when the train traverses through those points. Now I’ve started another line I’ve made it maybe more complicated but ther would b something 8-9 points on layout 4 of which are at the crossing section.

[Fishmanoz]

Only need the IRJs between the points making up a crossover.

With that, when you change the points from straight ahead to crossing, the loops are still separate electrically. Therefore you Cant get a short if the polarities are opposite.

However, when a loco crosses from one loop to the other, if the polarities/loco direction are opposite in each loop, it will bridge the IRJs as it crosses and you will get a short.

[Matty1707822508]

Excellent and very greatful for ur help. So as far as I can think of is that one that which switches to outta loop also mind u need to continuity test on that point cause thats certainly the one in question so that point needs ifp as far as i know I fit one to each point one on opposing ends, i dunno if if I can show my layout but just wondering roughly how many would b needed. Especially with new section coming off also I believe I need a special switch and does that mean I have fire two switches or the new is it on/on switch? Green one anyway. Just don’t know how many I’d need incase I can’t upload track plan just pretend it trackmat f that would b greatly appreciated and again very very appreciative for all ur help! Train people r the best!

[96RAF]

If you are using HM6010 to switch your pints you don’t need a switch of any colour. You change your points from the HM6K app.

As Fishy says the IRJs fit between the pairs of points, where the diagram below shows nipped in. There is a lot of HM6K information leaflets on the main web pages linked to from this forum index page.

The track planner in the app has all the track at extensions in it to import and you can extend it as you wish. It’s not interactive though so you can’t use the plan to play trains.

This diagram may help…

[Matty1707822508]

Community thanks so very much that schematic along with the advice has made this much clearer much less daunting and shows me exactly wat I need to do. Thought it may end up cost another $50-100aus and yes maybe I’ll get another hm6010 100% when they finally have Australian plug availabile again!! Lol! No very greatful have a much beta idea now of how to proceed which is all I wanna do. I have a cupboard full of scenery but if my trains won’t run reliably why bother! Was really disappointed at one point and even thought “we’ll it’s not a huge layout and they say u can get away with dropper wires every 3ft so maybe buy some fishplate droppers to slow start aiming for dcc but really not the time for it. Bit crook, and money wise. While I’m at it if I’m slowly gonna build towards dcc r those presoldered fishplates ok to use and will I still need insulated fishplates? No biggie u guys have really answered my main question so I’m really really thankful

[96RAF]

If you are a bit canny for money then you can stretch one 15V PSU to feed a few 6010s as they don’t use much power and not all at the same time. You need the HM7020 power supply adapter cable. Plug the track end into a suitable size terminal strip (choc block) and from that feed all your 6010s. The 6.3mm jack plugs are available but generally need soldering, as I haven’t seen any screw fitting ones like you can get for the 5.25mm plugged 12v PSUs.

Fishplates are the weak link in any track power system hence why droppers are used. Using wired fishplates is feeding the weak link.

Once installed you can leave the IRJs and link round them to save disturbing the track, and fit droppers either side for DCC all live track.

[Matty1707822508]

Thanks so much again everyone for all ur help. I’m not so much canny for money I was willing especially now that I know how things need to b I have absolutely and had already thought of getting another of each hm6000 for new part and I do have 4 locos and certainly another one atleast hm6010 i just was so dejected and didn’t know I’m still waiting an Australian power supply for the first hm6010. So yes I have heard that exact thing about the fishplate droppers for dcc I gotta stop being lazy and do more soldering. Really atm thanks to u guys I’ll b very soon up and finally get the trains running then. I don’t want nor unfortunately have the room to do a big layout so I believe a couple more HM devices will b all I’d need. Till it’s not! One day when a bit healthier I’ll get to dcc. Again so very grateful!!! Thanks, Matt

[Matty1707822508]

Hi guys I’m so sorry I have had nothing to update was waiting on firstly isolated fishplates and another hm6010 but somehow I ordered normal fishplates so had to send back now they’ve sent me R920 isolating fish plate which do gap the point obviously but I thought I needed R917 or they were more plasticy than the back ones r these gonna work for wat I need which is obviously to change the polarity when that switch and a couple more but I’m a back to being disappointed cause was hanging for these plastic joiners so I can continue now I’m not sure if this wat I’ll need or suffice or not and have to get the others I only just got that part no. R917 today. Any help would really b great appreciated. Thank u

[Matty1707822508]

sorry it’s a late reply but ur right I have a polarity issue and for some reason I have both tracks the same way A is at back and B is the front. The layout worked fine with 2 trains prior to the changing and are in the middle of making a third extension to track mat F. Also probably giving me another headache but anyway. It’s taken so long since I first posted this was given a schematic and all to fix but it included plastic joiners. That’s cool luckily I haven’t stuck track down or ballasted but really wanna get on with the train and scenery. But some how I’d either ordered 3 packs of new fish plates only to send back for wat I thought was wat I needed, I sent em back asked for the plastic joiners next thing today arrives these black isolated fishplates R920. Again I don’t think these would b wat I need and I’ve only got the part no. today as r917 for the ones I thought I needed but didn’t know till today but ur 100% correct I need to fix the polarity issue and go one step at time cause it was when I added the 2nd loop and power track the same way which is just blatantly dumb! Told its ok to have the 2 power tracks it’s just the way this layout is I have to stop one train at stations ect one for goods ect and the extension (probably another HM6000 also but have multimeter ect and are about to go fault finding! Thanks for ur info if u think I do need plastic joiners for new section or even old pls let me know or know if I do have to have to fishplates will these R920’s do the job. The outta loop I have curved points for the extension but not using it yet obviously. Thanks heaps again

[Fishmanoz]

R920 is the correct part.

[Matty1707822508]

Thanks so much for ur help mate it’s been fantastic and am wrapped I have the correct ones. So they r both connected In schematic together on the same point and rails. Or is it one per side cause kinda looks like it basically the right or switched sides of the point that aren’t going straight. Or is my zoom playing up? Again it’s basically trackmat f on Dc using the hm6000 and now have 2 hm6010s so should b covered and yes the trains would b running the same way even in the extension which so far I have 2x curved points but don’t foresee any more may one but don’t think so so polarity shouldn’t b an issue now and I also still had link wires mucking it up even more I think yet all polarity is the same which I’m told shouldnt b an issue but I’m gonna remove them at the same time as rip up the points most r done and ready to go. It’s 10pm here in Australia and I had a few appointments so im knackered but so glad they’re correct just need to double check that two r fitted to the one rail or does it need a normal joiner on one rail or both on the same rail. Again greatful for ur help and advice im so happy im getting so close now. Any info would b great by by the look of the schematic it seems two on a particular rail of the point. My Xoom isn’t great thanks mate

[96RAF]

I am bailing on this one as it seems to parallel the similar post from this OP.

[LTSR_NSE]

@Matty your question regarding where to use the plastic fishplates (rail joiners) depends upon your situation:

• if you are using them for points, where track with separate controllers meet, then you want one on each of the joining rails (left & right rail of curved exit).

• if you are using them where the point is a source of polarity conflict (a reverse loop) then you want them on the inner rail of both straight & curved exits.

Follow whichever matches your situation and ignore the other (since it is irrelevant to you).

Just spotted 96RAF’s diagram on the first page which makes clear which option matches your situation.