Review of R30233 LMR58 Tiger Train Pack

[What About The Bee]

I've just received LMR58 Tiger. I'm very pleased. I did want to share my thoughts

Website and Process

Tiger was part of the 2023 Range Launch. It was originally set for Winter 2022/23 arrival. I thought that must be an error, and was happy to see Hornby update this to Winter 2023/24. They caught the error! On 13 Feb, the arrival season went blank. I pinged the website repeatedly and 2 days later, it showed "in stock". It was shipped shortly thereafter and arrived today, 21 Feb. Assessment: The arrival date shifted out a year, and then back a year. I think this due to the "Winter" phrase. Hornby should simply pick month and year. It would lead to less confusion at Hornby! On the plus side, it shows as "despatched" and not "processing", so there is website progress!!

Tiger

The locomotive reasonably depicts Lion, as found and documented in 1929. Trans. Liverpool Engineering Society, Vol L, 1929.

×

As Lion and Tiger were sister locomotives, built at the same time, using Lion's image as the inspiration is fair play. Hornby has taken its model of Lion and substituted in the firebox as photographed in 1929. Different chimney. Same crew. The instruction sheet says "Lion". The entire model is mechanically the same. If you were happy with Lion (and I am), you will be happy with Tiger. It matches what it says on the tin.

The Wagons

These diminutive wagons are precisely what everyone thought. They are indeed the same tooling as Rocket's tender. A door has been added to the front, giving four sides. The coal load and barrel removed, a wood floor replaces that. They look too small behind Tiger, and they should. These are the wagons used at the Rainhill trials, and Tiger was a freight locomotive after a decade of evolution and practice. Tiger would have been capable of large consists and these tiny wagons are simply not. They do, however, look terrific behind Rocket.

Again, I'm quite pleased overall. Hornby made good use of the existent tooling to provide another locomotive for the fleet. As well, good use of existent tooling to provide another bit of rolling stock, expanding selection.

Bee

[What About The Bee]

I placed my Lion and Tiger models side by side so as to more readily spot differences.

I spotted this

Just Square Holes in Lion's buffer beam

I wrote to Hornby Customer Service, requesting the side hooks. They replied that the designer deliberately left them off, as this is how Lion appeared for the Centenary.

Hornby is correct! Close inspection of the front buffer reveals no side hooks. I just thought to add this for others who may notice the same thing.

Bee

[What About The Bee]

Hysterically, I once again have a rotated image. Doh!!

Moderators, would you mind fixing that for me? Appreciated!

And here I am thinking that I finally had the issue under control!

Hehehehe

Bee

[ellocoloco]

Thank you Bee.

I really enjoy your write ups regarding the early days of the railways and how you are adapting the Hornby models. Its not an area of the hobby I have previously been interested in or have much knowledge of. I have come close to ordering one of the early sets but my main interests have control over the budget. Maybe one day.......

Your enthusiasm in infectious!

[What About The Bee]

I do worry sometimes that I am boring folks to death, babbling on about some detail or another. Thank you Ellocoloco for your interest. It gives me enthusiasm to go on.

One significant item of the early days to have survived is the Rule Book!!!! That is, we have written direction from the Liverpool and Manchester Railway Board of Directors to all staff. Quite extensive and the result of practical analysis of the railway activities, serving to run a well ordered railway. A fantastic view into daily operations.

Now that I have a well matched pair of locomotives, I can finally perform an interesting experiment. But first, a review of some specific rules to Enginemen.

Orders to Enginemen and Firemen

11) ... no engine shall propel before it wagons or carriages ... except when assisting up the inclined planes.

26) ... enginemen are ordered to be ready, on the signal being given, to follow the trains immediately after they pass ... up the bank

30) Enginemen with trains requiring assistance up the inclined planes are required .... to go up the bank¹ first and let the assisting engine follow...

In plain English, we can deduce the following. 

Heavy trains cannot make it up the Sutton Inclined Plane or the Whiston Inclined Plane, to the Rainhill Level Plane, without assistance. The heavy trains were instructed to run beyond the assisting (banking) engine, parked in a siding. Once it has passed, the points were changed and the banking engine would run up behind the train needing assistance. The banking engine would then propel some of the carriages before it. As the weight of the carriages and/or wagons was now taken off the lead engine, the lead engine could pull some, whilst the banking engine could propel some.

Essentially a controlled crash!

Consider now Hornby Lion and Tiger. Lion cannot pull 9 Accurascale Chaldrons without assistance on a flat, level plane. I've double headed Lion with Rocket to pull the consist. Yet these locomotives are not well matched. Lion and Tiger, however, much like the prototypes, have identical drive mechanisms. They are well matched. 

Suppose now the following. Lion attempts to pull 9 Chaldrons. It cannot. Lion can readily handle 3, but not 9. Tiger comes up behind and propels some of the Chaldrons before it. As Tiger takes up the load, the load on Lion is reduced and therefore, Lion should be able to handle a reduced load. When does stability occur, if ever? Do the Chaldrons derail? Does Tiger propel 4, Lion pull 4 with the odd Chaldron in the middle bouncing about?

This experiment is completely analogous to the Whiston and Sutton Inclined Planes on the real LMR. The consist is too much for the tiny locomotive and assistance is required. With a closely matched pair, the velocities will match fairly well, and the test will be meaningful. If the propelling engine is too fast or too slow, my analogous test is invalid.

I have no idea what is going to happen, but I am quite excited to finally do this!! 

Just like the LMR.

Bee

¹ Assisting engines were also called "banking engines" as they assisted others up the bank!

[LTSR_NSE]

I wholeheartedly agree with @ellocoloco - your informative & interesting posts about real railway practices and their reasons (and your related experiments & exploits) are the very opposite of boring.  

I am a magpie purchaser & ardent fan of Rule 1, therefore I have no personal interest in modelling any form of ‘accuracy’ - however I completely agree that your enthusiasm is infectious!

[threelink]

Fear not, Bee. Your posts are never boring. I look forward to reading the results of your banking experiments. I hesitate to forecast how the train will progress but suspect that, although stability might never be achieved, the train will nonetheless make progress, even if rather lumpily.

[What About The Bee]

Chaldrons were selected for the banking test, but why?

The Accurascale chaldrons use drag chains. Not inflexible plastic drag chains ala Hornby, rather, the Accurascale drag chains consist of actual link formed chains. The Hornby drag chains are rigid, with little play in the peg system.

The locomotive propelling the system must take the load away from the locomotive dragging the system, without shocking the consist from the rear.

In a rigid system, the wagons will be trapped between a fast locomotive and slow locomotive. Any slight angle, anywhere in that rigid system will concentrate the applied force, leading to lateral displacement and derailments.

Yet with actual drag chains, the lead locomotive will only feel a lessening of drag, not an impulse of shock. 

Further, the propelling locomotive must not lock buffers. Here is the first issue. Tiger's buffers do not align with the dumb buffers on the Chaldrons, horizontally or vertically.

This problem is far from unique.  I've taken the hint and constructed a similar wood chaldron buffer attachment, similar to this real world shunter

The pine was resawn to the thickness of the front buffer (2.2mm) so a firm fit is provided. A sandwich assembly was glued up and trimmed. The attachment clips over the front, avoiding all three hooks present.  Call it generation 1.

Once the glue is fully cured, I can try a simple propelling test. One chaldron in front of Tiger at slow speed. The dumb buffers on the chaldrons do align from chaldron to chaldron, so then I can test 2 or 3 chaldrons being propelled.

Once I have a reasonable propelling regime, the actual banking test can begin. 

Step by step!

Bee

[threelink]

@Bee

It is fascinating to see the sort of problems which arose in the days before standardisation, and the solutions which were adopted to solve them. Misalignment of buffing and drawing gear is but one of many. Achieving solutions in 4mm scale is, in many respects, more difficult than at full size. It took me a long time to ensure proper alignment of buffing gear to achieve satisfactory buffer shunting of wagons fitted with 3 link couplings and even then had to cheat a bit by using slightly over scale buffer heads on one or two vehicles. The one thing I have never come to terms with is the recorded instances of GWR broad gauge trains running with standard gauge pilot engines, or vice versa. How that worked in practice defeats me utterly.

I cannot wait to read the results of your experiments

[What About The Bee]

Here are the results. Does Tiger propel chaldrons?

Hornby Lion and Tiger BANKING a rake of Chaldrons - YouTube

The buffer beam adapter installation is illustrated, along with testing 1, 2 and 3 chaldrons.

I recognize that this is only on a straight. Yet my concern was that the chaldrons would be pushed ahead of Tiger, to be repeatedly bashed as the chaldrons were propelled. That concern was alleviated with the results of the test. No buffer lock. No derailments. Success!

The banking test awaits!

Bee

[What About The Bee]

The testing is complete. I am completely over the moon.

Hornby Lion and Tiger BANKING a rake of Chaldrons - YouTube

There was a significant amount of preparation for this test. I confirmed the current draw for each locomotive, for each load of 0 to 9 chaldrons. It was safe, varying from about 0.034 amps to 0.04 amps. Next, I tried both locomotives on the same loop. 0.066 amps, still safe. I put them 1/2 loop from each other and let them run, to see which one, if any, was faster. Lion was, but only a pinch so, it took nearly 10 minutes for this to become evident. The locomotives are well matched.

Either locomotive is incapable of dragging 9 chaldrons at this speed without wheel slip or stalling with wheel slip. Either could drag 4 chaldrons without any wheel slip.

The test was amazing. I had Lion attempt to drag 9 chaldrons. With Tiger approaching, my finger was on the power off button. Completely unneccesary. Tiger gathered 3 to 4 chaldrons, and with the load off of Lion, Lion easily went forward. Stability was achieved in inches!!!! Lion always dragged the front 3, Tiger always propelled the back three. The center 3 chaldrons would vary as a function of the momentary load on either loco. They never oscillated violently, just wiggled between states. I watched them go round and round. No issues.

I took the videos you see, and concluded the test. This functioned exactly as the LMR did on the inclined planes. Wow!!!

Bee

[threelink]

@Bee

Fascinating. A terrific outcome. It was perhaps fortunate that the two locos displayed almost identical running charateristics. Had there been any substantial difference I think the results might have been a little less satisfactory. I look forward to your next post!

[What About The Bee]

Hi ThreeLink

No one was more surprised than I to see the test perform so marvelously. Yet rather than some presentient expertise, I think I was fairly lucky.

1) Velocity v Chain Length. I set the DC power to the lowest I could whilst still maintaining steady forward motion. My reasoning was to reduce impact force under the controlled crash regime. In retrospect, this allowed time for the load to come off of the lead locomotive [Lion] and then Lion to accelerate up to normal speed with the drag removed. That takes time. Rate of motion changes are not instantaneous. If the drag chains were shorter, or the velocity of the trailing locomotive [Tiger] higher, then the entire compliance of drag chain slack may have been removed from the system. This likely would have resulted in derailment, as Tiger would then transmit the controlled crash force into Lion.  Luck.

2) The number of chaldrons in consist. As luck will have it, I only have 9 Accurascale Chaldrons. Further, Lion or Tiger handles 4, with the 5th chaldron causing minor wheel slip. 9 is coincidentally the correct number of chaldrons. Many more would be beyond the capabilities of the pair. As we go fewer, the lead locomotive has little need of assistance. 6 chaldrons may illustrate banking, but it would not be conclusive. Luck.

3) For a DC test, such as mine, the locomotives should be identical drive mechanisms. Hornby decided to produce Lion AND Tiger. It is clear from the square holes in Lion's front buffer beam that this was Hornby's intention all along. If Hornby didn't produce Tiger, the test would be possible only under a DCC regime, with speed matching. Even then, the distribution of chaldron load will be critical. Luck.

4) Accurascale Chaldron drag chains. Accurascale decided on authentic drag chains, rather than rigid drag chains. Revisiting point 1, the Hornby drag chains have little compliance. The lead locomotive would have insufficient time to accelerate before Tiger's force came crashing through if there were only Hornby drag chains. Luck.

5) Accurascale rolling friction. The chaldron rolling friction is much higher, per wagon, than the Hornby rolling stock. This kept the wagons from bouncing ahead of Tiger, rippling through consist. If I only had Hornby wagons, I would need far more wagons than are already in my fleet, even with real drag chains. Luck.

All of these features fortuitously aligned. I will take some credit for conceiving the inclined plane / horizontal plane equivalence and for a rigid test regime. Further, I expected the drag chains to provide some compliance.  

But there is far more to the test than meets the cursory eye. I think I got lucky. Hence my astonishment at a successful test result in such a short time.

Bee 

[What About The Bee]

It has come to my attention that youTube shorts require a different aspect ratio than I have been using.

This is a re-upload of the relevant BANKING TEST video with the proper aspect ratio (hopefully!)

Edit: Yes! The aspect ratio is now correct.

[KennyP]

Hi

I am late to this.  I have a similar photo of what I think is the Lion "stripped".  Does anyone know anymore about the photos, when where etc?

Thanks in advance for any help

RDS Mode Note:  It has been suggested that the image you posted may be subject to copyright.  Please advise where you got it.

I have removed it for now, as copyright images are not allowed without permission.  (Thank you WATB)

Edited April 9 by RDS
Removal of potential copyright image

[What About The Bee]

Hello @KennyP

That is very likely taken at the same time as the images in  

Trans. Liverpool Engineering Society, Vol L, 1929.

Thank you for bringing that to my attention, I have not previously seen that image

Bee

Edit: may I ask where you found that image??

Edited April 9 by What About The Bee
Question added

[Brew Man]

@KennyP

The picture was definitely taken in Liverpool as Bee suggests. Threlfall's Ales was a Liverpool brewery until Whitbread bought them out in the 1970s

[What About The Bee]

@KennyPI would like you to understand.  The image posted appears to be a scan of a photograph.  It has that white border, so indicative of old prints.  

Now I tried a reverse image search on that image.  Of course I did.  Fabulous image like that, it should pop right out.  It did not.  Another indication that it is a primary source.

Kenny, I suspect you have an original, otherwise unknown image of Lion.  These do NOT turn up every day.  

I tried to make sure the moderators protected YOUR copyright.  They did the right thing by you, not letting it out into the internet without accreditation.

Hopefully, you understand

Bee