Identifying wheel sets

[RMRED]

I've recently purchased a number of used carriages of varying types, however some of them derail on my points (Peco, some setrack and some streamline) while others work OK.

The wheels on the ones that work look different to those on the ones that don't (they seem to be made of thicker metal).

Is there a resource somewhere that will help me to indentify the correct wheelset? I could of course remove the axle from one that works, and travel across Brum with it to identify what I need, however best to be able to ring first to see if they have what I need in stock before hand!

For example - My R413 (Operating LMS brake coach, which appears unused!) and R434(57' brake 3rd) derail, but most of the pullmans (except one) work OK on all points, so I guess its wheelsets from these that I need.

Plus - to measure the diameter, what should I measure - across the flanges or just the flat face?

Thanks - Richard

[ntpntpntp]

Diameter is measured across the treads not the flanges.

Post a photo of the wheelsets that are  giving problems - maybe they've been replaced with non-Hornby wheels, or maybe they're just very old wheels given those seems to be old R numbers? 

Can the wheels be removed from the bogies?  I'd take a wheelset out and simply roll it by hand through your points.  If they get stuck or bind through the check rails/wing rails then the back-to-back is too tight.  If the flange hits the tip of the frog V then the back-to-back is too wide.  Depending on the design of the wheelset it may be possible to adjust the back-to-back distance with careful push/pull and twist (or better still use of a worm/gear puller tool). 

[RMRED]

1 hour ago, ntpntpntp said:

Diameter is measured across the treads not the flanges.

Post a photo of the wheelsets that are  giving problems - maybe they've been replaced with non-Hornby wheels, or maybe they're just very old wheels given those seems to be old R numbers? 

Can the wheels be removed from the bogies?  I'd take a wheelset out and simply roll it by hand through your points.  If they get stuck or bind through the check rails/wing rails then the back-to-back is too tight.  If the flange hits the tip of the frog V then the back-to-back is too wide.  Depending on the design of the wheelset it may be possible to adjust the back-to-back distance with careful push/pull and twist (or better still use of a worm/gear puller tool). 

Thankyou

Photos attached,  in each case the "Bad" wheel is on the right, the "good" wheel is on the left. As you can see, the "Bad" wheel has a closer back-back than the good one, and I don't think it can be adjusted as far as I can see. The difference in wheel thickness is obvious!  I thik also there's a smidgeon difference in axle length.

I had a go a measuring the diameter, and I think there's about 0.5mm difference between the two ("Good" 13.1 v "Bad" 13.6). I'm not sure if my measuring technique is good enough, unless my micrometer has gone out of adjustment these seem like an odd size.

Tried putting "good" axles onto a coach that derails, now works perfectly albeit with a tiny bit more lateral movement of the axle, so I think replacement is the way to go if I can identify the correct wheels

Thanks - Richard

[RMRED]

Just been looking at the hornby website, the "good" wheels look like Hornby R8097, would these be correct? Or perhaps the R8096 (no holes) would also be a good replacement?

[Brew Man]

Dapol also do compatible one quite a bit cheaper. Your measurements puzzle me though. 'Standard' diameters are 12.6mm or 14.1mm. Yours are somewhere in between, so maybe you should measure them again. Remember that it's the tread diameters you are measuring, not the flanges.

Those 'bad' wheels as you call them definitely look like very old style width patterns so it doesn't surprise me that you are getting problems on points with those.

Edited April 28 by Brew Man

[Going Spare]

The plastic wheelsets with metal tyres are indeed old, particularly those with square axles (20+ years), and the latter were notoriously poor runners.  The R8096 solid disc wheelsets are the current standard for coaches taking 12.6mm wheels with the R8097 version intended more for freight stock.  The pinpoint axles on the plastic wheelsets often wear down and although your examples appear to be in quite good condition, because of their age the bogie axleboxes may also have sustained wear giving rise to the lateral movement you mention.  Also check that the back-to-back measurement between the wheels is no more than 14.5mm for current Hornby track and ideally slightly less for Peco streamline points; as you have both, a compromise setting may have to be by trial and error. 

[RMRED]

22 minutes ago, Going Spare said:

The plastic wheelsets with metal tyres are indeed old, particularly those with square axles (20+ years), and the latter were notoriously poor runners.  The R8096 solid disc wheelsets are the current standard for coaches taking 12.6mm wheels with the R8097 version intended more for freight stock.  The pinpoint axles on the plastic wheelsets often wear down and although your examples appear to be in quite good condition, because of their age the bogie axleboxes may also have sustained wear giving rise to the lateral movement you mention.  Also check that the back-to-back measurement between the wheels is no more than 14.5mm for current Hornby track and ideally slightly less for Peco streamline points; as you have both, a compromise setting may have to be by trial and error. 

Thankyou - have looked at the Dapol wheels, about half the price (20 instead of 10 axles/pack), and since I have 4 coaches to sort out that may be the way to go! (Plus some other s/h wagons that I haven't tested but which clearly have the square axles and thick wheels). Interestingly, some suppliers are showing them as discontinued, and Dapol's website shows an interesting article dated last year (which I found following your lead) about a new machine to make their own wheelsets ,which makes me wonder if some suppliers have older stock.

4 hours ago, Brew Man said:

Dapol also do compatible one quite a bit cheaper. Your measurements puzzle me though. 'Standard' diameters are 12.6mm or 14.1mm. Yours are somewhere in between, so maybe you should measure them again. Remember that it's the tread diameters you are measuring, not the flanges.

Those 'bad' wheels as you call them definitely look like very old style width patterns so it doesn't surprise me that you are getting problems on points with those.

Thanks for that - have adjusted my micrometer (and my brain) and re-measured at 12.6 mm.

All-in-all I now have more knowledge from all the responses, than I had earlier today and I can move forward with this one, so heartfelt thanks to you all.

Now for to find the next problem ...

[Darren-373700]

  Good old Hornby Silver Link wheels I think .. caused havoc on my Streamline Peco points ... with a 'test coach'  .. swapped for the plain R8096 wheels which I also slotted into an old DMU set (middle and trailor) and now runs smoothly, quieter and doesn't wobble.

[Rana Temporia]

Silver seal, they were the upmarket Hornby range and the wagon boxes had a little silver sticker holding the flap closed. I have some good ones but many were egg shaped and useless. 

[81F]

I think the Silver Seal wheels came out around 1976 when I started with my first Electric Train set and I remember that a Great Aunt bought be a 16T BR mineral wagon to go with my first Train set which only had plastic wheels. At the time the silver seal wagon was one of my best runners but I was using the old Super 4 track and had exactly the same problem when I converted to PECO track in 1978.

Sadly bad attempts at detailing to try and bring the wagons up to the same quality as the Mainline, Lima and Airfix stock appearing on the market resulted in all of them being withdrawn. However, I have recently purchase quite a few Hornby Mk1 and Mk2 coaches some with silver seal wheels  which I have swapped out the originals for the Hornby 3 hole disc wagon wheels which run beautifully. Dapol wheels also work but I have found some to be not as free running as the Hornby versions but otherwise OK.

A couple of useful tools to get is a 00 back to back gauge, as some of the modern wheels can be a little out of gauge which can cause derailments (however this will not work on wheels which are molded to the axles like silver seal). The other is a bearing reamer which will correct any minor defects in the bearings. I has also fixed some of the tight running dapol wheels.

In fairness we should also mention Bachmann make spare wheels that would work over PECO points but I find these a little more expensive and no so free running in Hornby, Mainline and Airfix stock until the wagon/coach have had some attention with the bearing reamer.