Loco Detection availability - Let's start a sweep

[PJ_model_trains]

As a software developer I'm well aware of the conundrum facing Hornby.  Of course you want to test every bit of code to destruction BUT realistically the real testing occurs once we get our hands on it.  There will come a time when further testing with yet more accessory decoders or signals has little or no payback.  That's when they have to take a deep breath and go with what they've got.  For that reason, initial versions may have a number of unexpected problems.  However, LD is not really mainstream so I would have thought initial users would be prepared for an initial bumpy ride.  The main thing from my perspective is getting the hardware in and installed, much like I have played a little with eLink/RM but not yet tested it fully.

The trouble is MetmanUk, that everyones idea of a cut off point is different. They seek perfection, many of us do, it is all to minimise risk and complaints after launching.

How close, where is the cut off point, can we launch yet, risk assessment! 

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As much as they will test to destruction as you say the decision when to let go isn't easy.

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Trouble is there is no Beta testing for some of us to get involved and run, test and provide feedback in the early stages.

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PJ

[Fishmanoz]

I think we may be forgetting that there is little or no software development needed for LD, the capability is already built in and has been for some time. All we are waiting for is hardware release after patenting. 

 

So so I'll try 10th February 15. 

[PJ_model_trains]

I think we may be forgetting that there is little or no software development needed for LD, the capability is already built in and has been for some time. All we are waiting for is hardware release after patenting. 

 

So so I'll try 10th February 15. 

Nice one Fishy

Is this message from USA or Australia?

Although I agree fully with what you say, HRMS have to fix the signal problems first, all aspects, sequence and feathers. RM and LD will be working close together.

PJ

[RDS]

Hi PJ

Sorry but I cannot see any tie up between fixing signals and LD availability.  Surely signals is just a software issue in RM, whereas LD involves Design, Patents and Hardware Manufacture, etc.

[Fishmanoz]

I think we may be forgetting that there is little or no software development needed for LD, the capability is already built in and has been for some time. All we are waiting for is hardware release after patenting. 

 

So so I'll try 10th February 15. 

Nice one Fishy

Is this message from USA or Australia?

Although I agree fully with what you say, HRMS have to fix the signal problems first, all aspects, sequence and feathers. RM and LD will be working close together.

PJ

Canada, Niagara on the Lake, until next week. 

[walkingthedog]

Don't forget many people want to buy the product plug it in and have it work. They don't want to become unofficial testers of a product. Hornby must wait until everything works perfectly to the best of their knowledge. 

[PJ_model_trains]

I think we may be forgetting that there is little or no software development needed for LD, the capability is already built in and has been for some time. All we are waiting for is hardware release after patenting. 

 

So so I'll try 10th February 15. 

Nice one Fishy

Is this message from USA or Australia?

Although I agree fully with what you say, HRMS have to fix the signal problems first, all aspects, sequence and feathers. RM and LD will be working close together.

PJ

Canada, Niagara on the Lake, until next week. 

 

Very nice Fishy

Although I thought for a minute you said you were on via gra not Niagara  ;o)

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi PJ

Sorry but I cannot see any tie up between fixing signals and LD availability.  Surely signals is just a software issue in RM, whereas LD involves Design, Patents and Hardware Manufacture, etc.

 

True RDS but...

LD will be programmed to change this point left or right, change this signal to this or that aspect, change this feather signal on and off, etc.  So they do tie up but, only to a degree see below.

But, at present, we only have half a package when it comes to signalling, they should work with Train-Tech and do, 2,3,4 aspect on their own but not in the correct sequence down the line.

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Although RM allows some signals and decoders in the software it doesn't allow all,  I am waiting for CR Signals 3 aspect with feather and the SC1 decoder which is a popular and very flexible decoder. Ray helped me set up the 3 aspect signal but we didn't get it working correctly on its own . Then there are the feathers for signals, again not included so far with RM 1.58.

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I appreciate the complexity of all these items but HRMS have confirmed they are working on them and will sort them out. I do however feel LD is not the issue here, it is signalling, I do not think LD will be as bigger issue as Fishy maybe thinks, I also think that although there are issues with signal 4 aspect Train-Tech signal sequence Y, YY, G showing correctly in RM but as Y, YY, R on the layout this is just a bug that needs finding and fixing (easy said I know).

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One thing I have found whilst using programs is, the sequence of signal aspects is not an issue in Programs, so the signal/LD issue is not as big as it may first seem.

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I will try explain what I mean here...  

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Red is left out of the sequence as it would not in effect be included. A signal turns red as a train passes, the sequence comes in one signal back as the tender or last carriage passes the signal that has just turned red. So red as I see it, will always be a single STOP command on its own.

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Now if I PROGRAM SIGNALS -  Y, YY, G down the line, based on the direction of the train there is an issue with the last Green in each case being Red.  We could say if it is a two way line that argument would be void, but that is not so as we have a set of signals facing the opposite way (on the left as the train travels) and the sequence issue shows with them also.

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NOTE: this sequence issue is only 4 aspect Train-Tech signals, the high speed line, my outer loop. 3 and 2 aspect both work correctly in RM and on the layout. I use 3 aspect on inner loops, slower lines.

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But if I PROGRAM MY TRAINS JOURNEY it doesn't happen! Which means if LD is used for commands as Programs are used for commands (I am sure they are) then there is not an issue, the issue is only programming signals.

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An example would be

0.00 choose train and put sound on

0.10 change signal to clear, Green

0.15 guards whistle

0.20 choose train set accelerate to or set speed

0.30 train passes signal, turn it to Red command

0.45 last carriage passes signal, turn first signal down the line Y command

0.46 (ditto) turn second signal back down the line YY

0.47 (ditto) turn third signal back down the line G

and write into the program when the train passes the next signal up the line turn Red

and repeat the 3 signal changes for each of the three signals back down the line as above but everything has moved on one block.

Keep writing these commands for every signal in the route or loop, step by step as the train proceeds along the track.

This method is sending 1 program message to each signal individually IT WORKS

LD will send 1 program message to each signal in the same way SO IT WILL WORK TO

This issue of sequence is now much smaller as most people can program their train rather than their signals (but it should work as the software allows for programming signals and it will in time)

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Therefore it appears, to me, there is a small bug in the code for signal sequence.  The main issue for HRMS then is adding more third party signals and decoders and making sure they work with both signals and LD (which they have for themselves for testing) 

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Once they sort these few items I see no reason why LD cannot be launched, providing patent has been completed and manufacturing done. Programming and running trains will be so much easier and more real than before. I cannot wait..... We cannot wait ;o)

[PJ_model_trains]

Don't forget many people want to buy the product plug it in and have it work. They don't want to become unofficial testers of a product. Hornby must wait until everything works perfectly to the best of their knowledge. 

 

Hi WTD

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I understand what you say but...

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It  will be more work than just plug it in an go! In fact there will be more ground work on our layouts than errors (I think)

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RDS is right in what he says although there is a connection between signals and LD as they will be talking to each other.

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As stated in another message if signals work now in Programming, they will work in LD. I am sure of that.

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This is not the issue as I see it, yes there is a small bug in sequence on 4 aspect Train-Tech signals, the issue for HRMS is adding more 3rd party signals and decoders and making sure they work between RM & LD. I would say this is probably the most complicated part but, they have already done it for some signals, it is now easier than when they first started.

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Hornby's target, again as I see it, is the simplicity of the system when complete, which will attract a lot of new customers bringing  a lot more people back in to the hobby, that has to be good.  With no programming CV's, connect, disconnect, test.  Just choose a signal type (and/or with) decoder type from a drop down list, save it and play. 

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PJ

[Yelrow]

Can i ask a stupid question. Can you have LR, without signals, as looking at the muddle PJ, and Ray have had to solve, and still have not, 95% of  people faced with that, wont bother, if they have to have both. We are getting new posts now, as WTD, referred to, who expect plug and play. They expect it with elink, so certainly wont have a tenth of the patience these guys have had. Also, look at the expense, in PJ,s case some £400, just for signals. Add another £400 for LR, you are going to seriously restrict the market. Is there a danger of this becoming an exclusive/ executive club. john

[PJ_model_trains]

Can i ask a stupid question. Can you have LR, without signals, as looking at the muddle PJ, and Ray have had to solve, and still have not, 95% of  people faced with that, wont bother, if they have to have both. We are getting new posts now, as WTD, referred to, who expect plug and play. They expect it with elink, so certainly wont have a tenth of the patience these guys have had. Also, look at the expense, in PJ,s case some £400, just for signals. Add another £400 for LR, you are going to seriously restrict the market. Is there a danger of this becoming an exclusive/ executive club. john

 

Hello John

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I invested around £600 on signals but, you don't have to have that many. Work on £25-30 each for a train-Tech signal but it has a decoder built in so works out better value and are so easy to setup. I also went for some feather signals (CR Signals) but RM is not ready for them yet so this was another issue and Ray and we discussed options to get them to work for now, this also may have made things look confusing. 

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£400 on LD is a lot of sensors John, I have worked on a sensor for ever block and one inbetween for fine tuning speed etc. Also one at the entry and end of every siding. You don't need to have that many it is up to you. The reason I would do that is because I have to have people lift my layout so I would do everything in one go. 

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You do not have to have signals John, LD will still work. With the sensors you will set speed of train, make a sound, stop, change signals (if you have them), change points etc. Image a train goes over a sensor, any instructions programmmed for your train (or all trains) passing over it can carry out your programmed commands. Hoot, toot, speed 20mph, etc, etc, it is your call.

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Back to signals for a minute if I may. It only seemed a muddle as we were having to explain in details little problems we had. Because the problem was complex, a problem in sequence of signal aspects showing a lot of detail was needed to get the message over.  

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I can tell you know you could install Train-Tech, 2 and 3 aspec signals and have no problems. Easy to set up, easy to use. But as mentioned above, if you prefer to wait and do LD you can and you could add signals later. And you don't need to spend large amounts of money.

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I was hoping RM would have fixed these small issues with signalling so we can move on and that will certainly increase confidence for others, for signalling and for RM software as a whole.

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It may seem I have spent a lot, I have ;-) But I have also sold almost all my trains except 3 DMU's to purchase other trains with sound. I now have 4 trains with sound and from sales can buy another 2 TTS ones, I will probably wait for some diesels.

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Loco Detection is my last big spend (that is what I have told my wife)

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PJ

[Yelrow]

PJ, hi, it was not a criticism, merely for us poorer mortals, and people entering the hobby, many of whom will not have locos to sell, to raise funds it may be a step too far. We already have a divide, DC, versus DCC, cos us DC people, cannot possible afford to convert all our locos, even if we wanted to . Now we have £30, if you want to talk to your trains, £300, being mean, for signals, and even at £250 for loco rec, its already  £580.  The point i am  suggesting is there is going to be a further divide, not through choice, but  purely on budget..   This is going to make for an elite category of modellers,  whether we like it or not..    Just a point of view, but if i had asked my dad to spend these sorts of monies on my trains, the words do you think money grows on trees , comes to mind. john

[96RAF]

PJ, hi, it was not a criticism, merely for us poorer mortals, and people entering the hobby, many of whom will not have locos to sell, to raise funds it may be a step too far. We already have a divide, DC, versus DCC, cos us DC people, cannot possible afford to convert all our locos, even if we wanted to . Now we have £30, if you want to talk to your trains, £300, being mean, for signals, and even at £250 for loco rec, its already  £580.  The point i am  suggesting is there is going to be a further divide, not through choice, but  purely on budget..   This is going to make for an elite category of modellers,  whether we like it or not..    Just a point of view, but if i had asked my dad to spend these sorts of monies on my trains, the words do you think money grows on trees , comes to mind. john

I pointed this out last year on the old forum, since lost. If you've got the money you can else you can't.

[PJ_model_trains]

PJ, hi, it was not a criticism, merely for us poorer mortals, and people entering the hobby, many of whom will not have locos to sell, to raise funds it may be a step too far. We already have a divide, DC, versus DCC, cos us DC people, cannot possible afford to convert all our locos, even if we wanted to . Now we have £30, if you want to talk to your trains, £300, being mean, for signals, and even at £250 for loco rec, its already  £580.  The point i am  suggesting is there is going to be a further divide, not through choice, but  purely on budget..   This is going to make for an elite category of modellers,  whether we like it or not..    Just a point of view, but if i had asked my dad to spend these sorts of monies on my trains, the words do you think money grows on trees , comes to mind. john

Dear John

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Every one should do what they want to do and can afford to do and do not compare with others, some will come and go, you won't, you will always enjoy your hobby.

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There has always been the larger layouts, the guys with top of the range trains, etc, etc.  There has always been the person in the detached house and one in a caravan, one with swanky cars and those without. We must never try to keep up with the Jones.

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All but my Majestic train set were second hand trains, I have sold these (including the majestic ones) for  me to have some trains with sound, so I started with basic and second hand, because I knew there were other things I wanted to do and now I am helping someone else come in to the hobby by selling them and buying ones that have sound, but I will be selective, money doesn't last forever.

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There will always be, especially in model trains, people who come up to retirement age and receive a lump sum and a pension, for a while they will buy what they want but, unless you win the lottery no one can keep it up. 

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What you are doing, not knowing probably, is putting groups into pigeon holes, first by the amount they spend and second by what system they run. I understand the frustration of those with older systems and the cost of converting to another, e.g. DC to DCC etc. I am sure Hornby know this too and that is why they are carefully trying to catering for everyone. 

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Your point of view is valid John and your dad is 100% right. If money did grow on trees I am sure it would be in France  ;o)

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I live in a humble 2 bedroom bungalow, no flashy car or high maintenance wife (I would have dumped years ago). I have had money and lost money, I have had good health and now don't have. We had a little mney from pensions when we retired and due to health reasons, both of us, we have each spent a bit on what will be our long term hobbies (till death us do part you could say). When I started back in the hobby I was lucky John, I came in at the start of DCC with RailMaster, always being a computer addict and liking trains it made total sense to me the now was right for me but, I planned from the start and knew the two most expensive parts, the bigger items, were signals and Loco Detection. Other than those items I have not spent a lot, on my layout, scenery and kit building etc, all on a humble 7' 6" x 4' 6" layout.

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Just do what suits you John, and do it in stages, bit by bit subject to time and what you can afford. But, most important, enjoy your hobby. We are so lucky at what ever stage or system we have today. And you have the odd glass of wine from that lovely area of France you live, what more could you need.

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Take care you are a very genuine person

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PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

PJ, hi, it was not a criticism, merely for us poorer mortals, and people entering the hobby, many of whom will not have locos to sell, to raise funds it may be a step too far. We already have a divide, DC, versus DCC, cos us DC people, cannot possible afford to convert all our locos, even if we wanted to . Now we have £30, if you want to talk to your trains, £300, being mean, for signals, and even at £250 for loco rec, its already  £580.  The point i am  suggesting is there is going to be a further divide, not through choice, but  purely on budget..   This is going to make for an elite category of modellers,  whether we like it or not..    Just a point of view, but if i had asked my dad to spend these sorts of monies on my trains, the words do you think money grows on trees , comes to mind. john

I pointed this out last year on the old forum, since lost. If you've got the money you can else you can't.

Hi RAF96

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I won't repeat what I have just said to John but we shouldn't compare. It may seem I am spending a fortune, my wife says I am, I use the excuse 'this should be the last big item'. 

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We are so lucky, it is a very varied hobby to suit large and small layouts and large and small pockets but, my pockets are not large or deep, we had a little from pensions and due to health we have treated each other to a few bits. I obviously seemed to have got the lions share she tells me but, other than signals and Loco Detection, the two big spends, I have second hand trains, a small layout, kit built buildings etc, I have been careful. 

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In our hobby there always willl be the big, big, big, new, new, new,; but there will always be the person who retires and comes back into the hobby having just received a lump sum and a pension. It's life RAF.

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I think my biggest frustrations, as can be clearly seen in past discussions have been signals and Loco Detection, that is because they are the two big things I set my heart on at the start and would be so disappointed if the voice from the other room said, thats it, we need to cut back, tighten our belts, etc. I know once I have them, the biggest items for me, I can do things slower and be more picky what I buy.

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I have to say, and I have said it many times this last year, I feel sorry for those with DC wanting to move to DCC due to the cost. I say it because I put myself in their shoes and at the same time, for me, I feel lucky I came in at the right time. Straight into DCC and straight in with RailMaster.

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PJ

[Yelrow]

PJ, thank you for your kind words, what sound locos do you have now. I have CON, new Tornado, both TTS, and an A4, with locksound. still trying for wow sound loco, to remind us of our hols in states. Unfortunately, as my wife would tell you, selling my possessions goes against my principals, as it took years of toil to get them, so all my original locos, remain. N gauge, O gauge, clockwork, Triang TT, Hornby Dublo 3 rail, the list goes on.  it would not be so bad, had i not taken up fly fishing, whilst , a bank manager, and have an extesive collection of american rods. So, , for us, its ok, as it is for most of the  mature guys on the forum, but what hornby want, NO need is new blood. Add your majestic, plus extras, laptop, plus signals, voice LC, sound locos, we are up to the best part of a tidy bit. my children cant afford to take this hobby up . It is not a question of comparing, or  keeping up. its putting our hobby out of reach of a lot of new people, and thats a shame.. When i was growing up, and working you could swap your locos, for a week , with a mate, go to their house, and play trains. Thats all going to be swept away, as the fortunate childs  DCC train will run on your layout, but not the other way round. Sorry, to witter on, but the divide is growing. john

[PJ_model_trains]

PJ, thank you for your kind words, what sound locos do you have now. I have CON, new Tornado, both TTS, and an A4, with locksound. still trying for wow sound loco, to remind us of our hols in states. Unfortunately, as my wife would tell you, selling my possessions goes against my principals, as it took years of toil to get them, so all my original locos, remain. N gauge, O gauge, clockwork, Triang TT, Hornby Dublo 3 rail, the list goes on.  it would not be so bad, had i not taken up fly fishing, whilst , a bank manager, and have an extesive collection of american rods. So, , for us, its ok, as it is for most of the  mature guys on the forum, but what hornby want, NO need is new blood. Add your majestic, plus extras, laptop, plus signals, voice LC, sound locos, we are up to the best part of a tidy bit. my children cant afford to take this hobby up . It is not a question of comparing, or  keeping up. its putting our hobby out of reach of a lot of new people, and thats a shame.. When i was growing up, and working you could swap your locos, for a week , with a mate, go to their house, and play trains. Thats all going to be swept away, as the fortunate childs  DCC train will run on your layout, but not the other way round. Sorry, to witter on, but the divide is growing. john

Hello John

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I have the following with sound

- My Royal Signals Loksound, Christmas Present last year

- A class 37 diesel Loksound, purchased secondhand 12 months ago - with lights

- DoG - TTS Hornby purchased recently

- CoN - TTS Hornby purchased recently

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I have sold a lot of other second hand trains most purchased when I started again 12 months ago.

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None sound trains are

- Class 142 ~ 2 car sprinter DMU 

- Class 153 ~ Northern Rail DMU with lights

- Class 155 ~ Northern Rail DMU with lights

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So I have had quite a sort out. 7 left and I had at least 12 but, after selling some I can still purchase 2 TTS diesels with what I have saved from the sales.

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Having purchased second hand last year and selling before Christmas this year I have made a small profit so have done well.

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You must have quite a collection John... N gauge, O gauge, clockwork, Triang TT, Hornby Dublo 3 rail.

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Just do what you enjoy John, what you can afford, do you need DCC, something is only out of reach if you feel you must have something. I remember being told when thinking about something is it a 'want' or a 'need', I still fall for the first one but a large percentage of what people buy nowadays is a 'want' not a need.

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You are not witering on, well maybe you are, but I do as well, I guess most of us do. Forget the divide, we are all in the same hobby. Your layout is different to mine, which are different to everyone elses. You have different trains, every one does. It is the same with Dc and DCC, Controller or computer, they are peoples choices. Some people wouldn't give RM house room, they want to twiddle their knobs. Me, I want eLink because 'I prefer' computer control. We all have different ideas but in the end, we all love our model trains

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The divide isn't growing, the English Channel is the same width this year as it was last year  ;o)

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PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Now we have £30, if you want to talk to your trains, 

 

Do you talk to your trains John?

[RDS]

 ... LD will be programmed to change this point left or right, change this signal to this or that..

I would appreciate some guidance from HRMS here because I had not considered that LD would be able to be programmed.  

I assumed it was a collection of pieces of Hardware, that would be connected to a computer running RailMaster and all the programming would be done, as it is now, within RailMaster.

[Yelrow]

PJ, rather than  deviate on this thread, i have replied to you on a new general thread, on size of collection. On there, you will see my dilemma. john

[PJ_model_trains]

 ... LD will be programmed to change this point left or right, change this signal to this or that..

I would appreciate some guidance from HRMS here because I had not considered that LD would be able to be programmed.  

I assumed it was a collection of pieces of Hardware, that would be connected to a computer running RailMaster and all the programming would be done, as it is now, within RailMaster.

Hi RDS

Open RM and then click the icon to open the schematic mimic plan of your layout

- Open your layout plan

- Click the icon to add point buttons on the left

- Next click the blue square, loco detection sensor box

- Add it any where on your track

- Now right click it the Loco Detection sensor box appears

- You will notice a white box in it that has ACTIONS above it

- click the white area top left and a drop down menu will appear.

This is the list of commands you will be able to use with LD

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PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

Here is a list of the commands mentioned above to use with Loco Detection

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On signal green

On signal red

For loco(s)

For train types(s)

For forward direction

For reverse direction

For any direction

Stop loco

Stop loco on signal

Resume loco on signal

Reduce loco speed to

Increase loco speed to

Set to cruise speed

Switch right point

Switch left point

Set clear signal

Set danger signal

Activate loco function

Play sound file

Run program file

Each one will have the option to say do something

e.g.

Switch right point --- I think this will be your point cv code 

On signal red --- stop

Increase loco speed to --- 30

Play sound file --- eg one you may save... Train now leaving platform x for.......

etc, etc

[PJ_model_trains]

Taking a new look at the above LD commands I notice the following...

- there is no On signal Y or YY (proceed with caution)

- you can change a signal but not a series of signals eg Y, YY, G

There are certainly a few commands

*** HRMS you may wish to consider the above, especially signals Y and YY as we may not always want a clear G signal.

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Hi PJ,

What I will be interested in finding out is how LD will interface with existing programs. For example, if a program currently starts a train from point A and stops it at point B, if the train passes a sensor which triggers one of the actions you have described, what happens to the unfinished program which was controlling the train - is it terminated prematurely or suspended in some way awaiting re-activation?

Ray

[96RAF]

Hi PJ,

What I will be interested in finding out is how LD will interface with existing programs. For example, if a program currently starts a train from point A and stops it at point B, if the train passes a sensor which triggers one of the actions you have described, what happens to the unfinished program which was controlling the train - is it terminated prematurely or suspended in some way awaiting re-activation?

Ray

Could be a problem as programs are time based and if say a train is held on detection or by a signal the clock ticks on, unless RM is building in delay support.