track issues with Triang loco

[shent]

Not sure if anyone has experience of this

For sentimnetal reasons I bought an old Triang Pricess Victoria loco circa 1960. After complete renovation including a new reconditioned motor it ran really well on DC

I have since converted it to DCC using a Hornby Saphire decoder and to my delight it runs really, really well even at very low speeds.

My problem is I have a full DCC layout all using Peco set track 100 and this old loco doesnt like the points (electrofrog) it is partly that the flange is too high as it runs over the plastic part but the main problem is the two wheels wedge between the plastic parts of the points.

It seems that the wheels need to be a bit thinner and smaller flanged and maybe set a bit wider apart. Other than turning them down which I will do if nothing else available, is it possible to get different wheels same diameter (not flange) that would fit on the princess and work on the more modern points. There may be a Hornby equivelant that would work

No problem running on the Peco track

Any help would be much appreciated.

Many thanks in advance 

 

[The son of Triangman]

As you have found the wheels on your loco are thicker in profile and have a deeper flange.

 

A solution is you could do a simple wheel swap or a complete chassis swap using a later old style Princess as a donor, they were made until 1974 and the later ones made after 1966 run on code 100 track.

 

Note though a lot of Tri-ang-Hornby until 1972 and Hornby locos made into the 1990's aren't keen on Peco Points.

 

Also worthy of note is that modern Hornby R.8000 series points have a shallower flangeway than the previous System 6 code 100 R.612/613/640/641 points so use of a needle file to the point flangeways on R.8000 series pointwork usually works for stock and locos made after 1966 for code 100 track.

[shent]

Thanks for your help I will see if I can find a later model to pinch the wheels off. I will of course have to do something about the boggie and tender wheels but that should be less of a problem. 

[The son of Triangman]

Glad to be able to help, late princess locos made from 1971-1974 have chrome plated wheels so are easily distinguished from previous models.  I would look for a chassis from one of these, the tender wheelsets, pony and bogie from one of these should be ok too.

[Mico11]

Hello Shent. It is always interesting when reading a question from a new member when trying to determine just what their level of experience is, and what relevence their question is upon their overall equipment.

I deduce you have considerable stock, are useful with possible conversion work and have just bought this loco as an experiment (it looks great) to supplement your stock at modest cost. Correct?

Others here will/have advise you on the technicalities involved in getting a solution. It is an acknowleged fact that the flanges on older stock don't work properly - full stop. Perhaps this will influence you when considering old stock in the future as the best solution. Perhaps you will enjoy the challenge of conversion.

I have had this experience, have limited conversion experience - 50 years interest in the subject, and finished up with a static model and happy!

[Ruffnut Thorston]

SoT has summed it up very well....

 

Sometimes the parts needed come up on that Auction Website....

 

Spare wheels, axles, and chassis have all been seen..... 😉

[LCDR]

As you have found the wheels on your loco are thicker in profile and have a deeper flange.

 

A solution is you could do a simple wheel swap or a complete chassis swap using a later old style Princess as a donor, they were made until 1974 and the later ones made after 1966 run on code 100 track.

 

Note though a lot of Tri-ang-Hornby until 1972 and Hornby locos made into the 1990's aren't keen on Peco Points.

 

Also worthy of note is that modern Hornby R.8000 series points have a shallower flangeway than the previous System 6 code 100 R.612/613/640/641 points so use of a needle file to the point flangeways on R.8000 series pointwork usually works for stock and locos made after 1966 for code 100 track.

Early Peco Streamline points (1980s) are much more forgiving than modern ones as well. They seem to have deeper flangeways.  In the 1980s our Triang/Hornby locos had no difficulty passing Peco points, but baulk at modern ones.

[The son of Triangman]

Yes indeed modern Peco points don't like older models.

[shent]

Hello Shent. It is always interesting when reading a question from a new member when trying to determine just what their level of experience is, and what relevence their question is upon their overall equipment.

I deduce you have considerable stock, are useful with possible conversion work and have just bought this loco as an experiment (it looks great) to supplement your stock at modest cost. Correct?

Others here will/have advise you on the technicalities involved in getting a solution. It is an acknowleged fact that the flanges on older stock don't work properly - full stop. Perhaps this will influence you when considering old stock in the future as the best solution. Perhaps you will enjoy the challenge of conversion.

I have had this experience, have limited conversion experience - 50 years interest in the subject, and finished up with a static model and happy!

Hello Mico11. 

My level of experience is not that great back after a 40 year gap. Building quite a large layout in an atic room for the last couple of years so still a long way to go yet. As I said in the opening shot I bought the loco for sentimental reasons, My father bought me this model as my first as a child which disapeared long ago. With his passing last year I just thought it would be nice thing to have. Conversion to DC went really well and has wet my appitite to do this with a few more old locos . But first I am determined to get this running over my Peco points as it does look the part on my developing circa 1955-1965 era layout. 

I just missed out on  spare wheels on that auction site ! ah well keep looking.      

[Mico11]

Hello  shent, very interesting. So your layout has been developing for 2 years or so and therefore there is no use of talking about filing your points. Enthusiasts have advised here about compatibility between flanges and points over the years but I couldn't tell from the "for sale" advert just what you would be buying, and therefore its suitability.

I wish you well and would appreciate your eventual outcome. Cheers.

[shent]

Ok I will keep you posted on my progress

[Mico11]

I find this subject really interesting.

I assume early Triang/Hornby Princess Victoria/Elizabeth locos all carried the same running gear.

They still provide volume sales today.

It would be a useful future reference point if someone here could provide which "R" numbers are suitable for current Peco (100?) points. I have noted earlier comments made here. From all the pictured online sales, none can be distinguished with chrome wheels. Most sales, I would say, are bought online.

I visualise:-

R30 R50 unsuitable (I'm guessing)

R2823        suitable (still guessing)

Perhaps siutability cannot be determined by R number. If so please advise, otherwise I hope this challenge to produce a list will be answered. It is going to save considerable anguish when  the problem sale arrives to most of us.

Many thanks.

[LCDR]

Yes -  A good rule of thumb is -

 

an 'R' number of 2 or 3 digits, (e.g. R50, or R258) probably coarse wheels and unsuitable for modern track

an 'R' number of 4 digits, (e.g. R2215) fine on modern track

 

I have to say this is very much a rule of thumb, because some of the models with three digit codes made since 1975 may have finer wheel standards which will pass through modern points easily.

[Mico11]

LC&DR  Tremendous!

You have done us all a favour.

[81F]

I once had a similar problem with my Albert Hall (1977 or 78) with it effectively clambering over one set of peco points. I eventually swapped the wheel set for some off a 1980s tender drive black 5 which helped no end. But getting the quartering right took several attempts

 

This is now a long term  "restoration" project for the display case since being repolaced by a newer Bachmann and Hornby Halls. Ironically I may refit the original wheels as verry little is left of the original model other than the Chassis block!

[The son of Triangman]

A good rule of thumb is locos generally made after or on late 1966 will run on code 100 track.  However most will have problems with PECO and Hornby 8000 series points.

[The son of Triangman]

Talking of Hall Class locos, this old timer is being restored. I put it together out of bits from the scrap box and some toy fair finds.  I have started work on the tender, the wheelsets are out so I can spray the tender chassis in gloss finish as per original.

 

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[LCDR]

 There are two problems in parallel.  Flange depth and back to back distance.

Flange depth.-  The flanges were considerably deeper and needed a deep rail section such as used by Triang.

Back to back -  meant that the flanges were too thick and would not pass through check and wing rails in pointwork.

 

The problem was most acute with Trix, but Triang was nearly as bad.

 

Before 1966 both were a problem with Triang when it comes to Peco track. However  Wrenn flexible track and points commonly available at the time used code 100 rail but the manner of attaching the rail  to the sleepers was different. Peco had moulded plastic chairs and the flanges rode on top of them. Wrenn used metal rivets which gripped the rail foot. Wrenn made universal points which had wide check rail clearances or dispensed with check rails altogether.

 

In the 1970s and 1980s flanges got smaller both in depth and width. By 1980 Hornby back to back was acceptable.

 

 Hornby Dublo (and Graham Farish) on the other hand right from the start used a much finer wheel standard much closer to BRSMB standards, and was OK on  Peco. Trix eventually moved to finer standards just before they were taken over by Lilliput and after Triang took over Hornby in 1965 the former Triang models moved to finer wheel standards, but it was a gradual process.  Hornby Dublo locos didn't like old Triang points and the wheels bounced through the wide crossing gaps, sometimes causing derailments.

[The son of Triangman]

Totally agree LC&DR. 1966 saw the introduction of finer standards to Tri-ang loco and rolling stock wheels and as you rightly say it was a gradual process. Peco also improved their points in the late 1970's which helped, subtle changes were made to check rails etc. The introduction of System 6 (R.600 series) track in 1970 also helped to improve wheel standards as most people used it and System 6 is still with us in modified form today in the range. The R.600 numbers are a clue to it's heritage.

[LCDR]

 I still have some Wrenn Universal points. These have a peculiar swinging frog arrangement so the rail surface is continuous. The whole rail swings to set the route.  They will accept nearly any locomotive even the coarsest Trix.  They did also make non-Universal ones so you needed to specify carefully.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

RE: Re-wheeling Tri-ang Locos....

 

I have just come across this info....It is in 2  pdf documents....

 

Double O Gauge association website....

 

http://www.doubleogauge.com/journal/locorewheel.PDF

 

http://www.doubleogauge.com/journal/Rewheel.PDF

[shent]

High Sarah

Thats very interesting. 

Since my first post. I have taken the wheels off and machined down a couple to try first. I have machined off 0.30mm from the inside flat surface of the wheel giving 0.60 clearance overall on the track. I have also reduced the flange dia by 1.00mm reducing it by 0.5 (Rad) to stand proud by 1.00  instead of 1.50. I have run an axle across the points and no problems and no jumping over. I will complete the rest now and put the chassis back together.

One thing I did notice is that the insulated part of the wheel where the spindle fits looks a bit age worn and I am a bit concerned as to whether that may cause a problem. Insulated wheels is highlighted in the link you sent. Not sure how you would re-do those if needed.  

[Jeff Mennell]

As you have found the wheels on your loco are thicker in profile and have a deeper flange.

 

A solution is you could do a simple wheel swap or a complete chassis swap using a later old style Princess as a donor, they were made until 1974 and the later ones made after 1966 run on code 100 track.

 

Note though a lot of Tri-ang-Hornby until 1972 and Hornby locos made into the 1990's aren't keen on Peco Points.

 

Also worthy of note is that modern Hornby R.8000 series points have a shallower flangeway than the previous System 6 code 100 R.612/613/640/641 points so use of a needle file to the point flangeways on R.8000 series pointwork usually works for stock and locos made after 1966 for code 100 track.

Would the latest Hornby points be better for old Triang locos or new Peco?

[The son of Triangman]

Neither, the older wheels were made for code 125 to code 150 rail. Tri-ang Super 4 is the best system for running the older locos as you can run new alongside old on it and it has dozens of accessories and the minic motorways system available for it, but it has to be sourced secondhand.

 

Alternatively you will need to have the wheelsets turned down on a lathe or fit replacement wheels for running on modern code 100 track.

[Jeff Mennell]

Neither, the older wheels were made for code 125 to code 150 rail. Tri-ang Super 4 is the best system for running the older locos as you can run new alongside old on it and it has dozens of accessories and the minic motorways system available for it, but it has to be sourced secondhand.

 

Alternatively you will need to have the wheelsets turned down on a lathe or fit replacement wheels for running on modern code 100 track.

My old old Jinty is ok on the new Hornby track and isn't tooo bad over the points but I may just buy a new chassis as I don't have the necessary tools or experience to take off wheels and turn them. I wonder if the train shop in Scarborough (not far from where I live) would do it?

 

Ta

 

Jeff