Tornado TTS decoder

[Spireblade]

Well, I'm astonished!....and a little paturbed.

Why sell a specific item for a loco that will not fit?

The wires on this decoder are way too short for the speaker to be placed in the tender. The general consensus of opinion is that I need to chop off the speaker and purchase an additional sugarcube speaker to mount at the front in thre smokebox. Errrrr is it just me or what?

Recomendations please.

[Chrissaf]

Can you state the Tornado R number please.

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As far as I am aware. The only tenders that have factory fitted provision for a TTS speaker to go in the tender, also have the DCC socket collocated in the tender as well. These locos can be easily identified because they have 4 black wires that join the loco to the tender via a four way white plastic plug and socket arrangement.

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If the DCC socket is in the loco, then it is highly unlikely that the loco will have these four interconnecting wires. This means that the speaker is usually supposed to be located in the loco where the decoder socket is located and not the tender.

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But this usually means that the supplied TTS speaker is physically too large to fit in the loco and needs replacing with a more suitable speaker. Usually a 'sugar cube' type.

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Some users do try to fit the standard round TTS speaker in the tender and leave the decoder in the loco, but then that means extending the speaker wires and fitting some form of after market plug and socket arrangement between the loco and tender. It can be done, but in my opinion it is just a lot easier to replace the speaker for one that will fit in the loco.

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You have to remember that not ALL steam locos that are 'DCC Ready' are also 'TTS Decoder Ready' locos. There are many 'DCC Ready' locos that predate TTS. Only the Steam locos with the four interconnecting wires and the decoder socket and speaker mount in the tender are 'TTS Ready' to take the standard pre-wired round TTS speaker.

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So your statement in your post:

Why sell a specific item for a loco that will not fit?

Is assuming that ALL Hornby DCC Ready locos are also fully TTS compatible. Which is not strictly true.

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The Hornby TTS decoder instructions sheet, says that pre-TTS locos will need to have some level of modification performed (see extract below), and if the speaker needs to be replaced, the instructions gives guidance on the best way to change the speaker.

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/media/tinymce_upload/bfa6155cad8106f248421c08616c6e75.jpg

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It would be nice if Hornby added a new classification label on the loco packaging that marked the packaging as "TTS Ready" as well as "DCC Ready". Then it would be easier to see what is upgradeable using standard unmodified TTS decoder (after market, stand alone) products.

[Spireblade]

Hi Chrissaf, thanks for the full explanation. Mine is the Railroad DCC Ready version as you probably gather, with the socket in the front. It's lookng like I'll have to order a sugarcube and hope for the best with my not very competant soldering skills. 

As your last paragraph states, it woud be good if Hornby came up with better labelling on both loco and decoder box. Basically, it seems the standalone TTS decoders are just replacement parts for a TTS fitted loco.

[Tomchatz]

i have the railroad tornado R3663TTS and it has wires to the tender a assume you have an older railroad one, it would be good if you put the R number  

[Spireblade]

Sorry. It's an R3060

[96RAF]

Its a bit like buying an aftermarket car radio and expecting it to fit any car in the world and having detailed instructions how to do so included  aong with all possible conversion parts In the box.

 

Get real  - as stated above the instructions say you may have to do a bit of actual modelling to make it fit. No one ever whinges about full fat decoders, which don’t even come with a speaker and require the same level of installation skills as TTS.

 

Whoever invented the PnP concept should have put a caveat in that it doesn’t apply to model railways, to preclude such idiotic statements be required saying don’t put live animals in the microwave. The world is going to the dogs on a handcart these days.

[walkingthedog]

Well said Rob. Nobody seems to want to use their initiative, everything has to be handed to them on a plate. To me one of the joys of this hobby is working out how to do things. We managed OK pre internet.  😉

[Howbi]

 Basically, it seems the standalone TTS decoders are just replacement parts for a TTS fitted loco.

Well that is obviously not the case as many modellers have installed TTS in every make and model of locomotive.......I have fitted TTS in Bachmann and Heljan as well as Hornby, with or without a DCC socket........HB

[Spireblade]

Disappointed with your reply RAF. I had you down as better than that. Never mind. I appreciate concise replies like Chrisaff gives but quite frankly it gets on my wick being talked down to.

It should state on the box if modifications may be required, not let you buy it first and then find out when you get to the fitting instructions. If I had known this at the time I may well have left it alone, or more probably bought a sugarcube at the same time. Now I have to wait until I can put my hands on one.

[Chrissaf]

Best source for 'Sugar Cubes' IMO......... www.youchoos.co.uk

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Don't worry 'spire' I shall always be polite.

[2e0dtoeric]

WTD put - Nobody seems to want to use their initiative,

That's why I've stopped responding to and answering the same old questions over and over. Then to be told I'm being rude if I say look it up, having answered the same question three or four times in that week  - - - - - -   🫨

How Chrissaf finds the patience I don't know.

[Chrissaf]

The patience of a saint Eric.....well mostly.......just occasionally, an unguarded curt remark gets me into trouble.

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Maintaining an indexed Word 'boilerplate' document with links to previous answers to post helps a lot.

[walkingthedog]

Will the speaker not fit in the loco. Is it impossible?

[Chrissaf]

The speaker of the Tornado TTS Decoder is the full sized round speaker optimised in size to fit the mounting provided in the Tender of 'TTS Ready' models.

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When you then compare the width of the loco boiler tube area with the width of the tender, there is significant noticeable difference. Not helped by the boiler being round in shape compared to the 'box' profile of the tender.

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/media/tinymce_upload/186a4a200aa38f8ebaf782d874e0419a.jpg

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Some TTS decoders, mainly the Diesel ones, use oblong speakers. But the Tornado one is round. I would estimate (purely an estimate as I don't own a Tornado but I do own an A4 with a round sound speaker in the Tender) that the diameter of the speaker is larger than the internal width of the loco boiler tube. Hence why many (HB for example) virtually fit 'sugar cube' speakers by default, when the speaker needs to join the decoder in the loco body. Typically, the 'sugar cubes' are more reliable than the cheap Hornby speakers anyway and worth replacing for that reason alone (based upon the many TTS speaker issues reported on this forum).

 

[walkingthedog]

 I hadn’t looked at the speaker. Sort of assumed it was oblong. So a couple of extension wires to the tender or a sugar cube in the loco or tender is the way to do it. Thank you Chris.

[WilliamDavid]

On two of mine I have changed the tender chassis with ones fitted with pickups. This comes with the mounting for the supplied speaker and 8 pin socket, although I used the Youchoos Flame 12 speaker.

I moved the 8 pin socket into the tender and wired them up as per the TTS Tornado. Quite cheap and simple to do. They run a treat. 

[96RAF]

I was being polite (after all this is a family forum) and I was not talking down to you in particular, just having a pop at folk in general who seem incapable of doing anything for themselves these days.

 

I left home at 16, got married at 20 and took my wife overseas for 3 years where we had 2 kids. The only comms we had in those days was snail mail (2 week round trip for letters). If you wanted to phone, you had to go to the Post Office and book a call through the operator (no one we knew had a phone anyhow). No internet and no running off to mum and dad to be bailled out of trouble. No compulsary counselling because someone you never knew broke a finger nail). We just got on with things as there was no option.

 

That is why I despair of those folk who lack initiative and need their hand holding from cradle to grave. As I tell my kids - you will have to get on with when I am gone, so you may as well get on with it now.

 

Rant over.

[2e0dtoeric]

@Chrissaf and RAF  😎 (and a 'thumbs- up, but there isn't one!)

Telephone - was about 500 yds down the street in a red cast-iron box with windows, next to the letter-box. The dogs seemed to like watering them!

Television - didn't have one for a long time. I remember (having to!) watch Coronation Street, b+w, 405 lines, and every time an aeroplane flew over, the picture went off! Huge wooden box of valves and electric spaghetti, with a 12" screen.

Computer - as far as the general public knew, it hadn't been invented. (Although we now know that Colossus was working, courtesy of Tommy Flowers, who built it from spare GPO parts, at his own expense).

Radio - had valves (tubes to the U.S.) and needed the battery charging at the local garage.

End of school - I had a certificate that said I'd been, and was about as much use as confetti. I was given an ultimatum, - get a job, or get out. So I did both, and joined the Royal Navy.

The rest is irrelevent.

And this has strayed about as far off topic as you can get!

[walkingthedog]

Back on topic, I’m surprised the TTS decoder comes with a speaker considering the price. 

[Spireblade]

The "go and find out for yourself" thing, well, that's fine in certain circumstances. If Hornby had put a note on the box as to which the thing fits and dosen't, then I would n't have the problem. I would've seen it and made my mind up whether to buy it, plus any extra parts required, or not. I was just a little peed off that when I got it home I couldn't fit it without buying another part.......and the shops were then closed.

 

Also, isn't this forum supposed to be a source of information and help? Well that's what I thought anyway. To be belittled wasn't what I expected from a forum designed to help. I realise it's a Hornby forum so have I broken a rule by moaning about a Hornby product? It's hardly my fault if a similar question has already been asked, or the subject raised. Hornby have actually seen this and have contacted me about the issue, which apparently is known to them, and asked me to lodge a complaint to them, which I will do.

Anyway, I have ordered a sugarcube speaker and will attempt to fit it in due course.

[Chrissaf]

To be fair to the forum. The question about fitting TTS speakers to non TTS Ready Steam locomotives has been raised on numerous occasions. It tends to be the Steam rather than Diesel DCC Ready locos that are affected as in the main, Diesel TTS typically come with oblong speakers.

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So there are quite a few threads and posts on this forum regarding the need to replace TTS round speakers with 'sugar cubes' or something different in non 'TTS Ready' steam locos.

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The issue is the abysmal search engine used on the forum and the lack of an indexed FAQ, making it near impossible to find these previous posts.

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Many a time I have given guidance on how to use 'Googles Advanced Search' engine to search this forum more effectively. Here is one such previous guidance post from 2017 (there have been other similar posts by me on this subject at various times):

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https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/searching-the-hornby-forum/#post-249994

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I also proposed detailed plans for a FAQ to forum admin, that would use mostly my own time to create, but so far there is a lack of Hornby budget to progress it past the concept stage. Rob has also written a TTS installation guide covering a wide range of non TTS Ready loco types. Again, that project stalled at the Hornby budget stage because it was to be part of the FAQ proposal. So the Com Mods do try to make forum improvements, but the tasks needed to implement them are outside of our direct control.

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[96RAF]

There is a good reason why Hornby know out about your problem  - I flagged it up to them, as seen in earlier posts about the CV29 DC enabled or not issue.

 

The Mods do more behind the scenes stuff on folks behalf than they realise.

 

As suggested I think the easy way out is for Hornby to ditch the speaker and say on the box and instructions that you have to source your own.

[TrainDriverJ]

Hornby Magazine produced a specific magazine “Locomotive Manual Vol 1 Express Steam” late last year focussing specifically on step by step guides with photos for installing decoders and sound decoders into main line model steam locomotives. R3060 was specifically covered on pages 70 to 73. It uses the Hornby TTS R8108 decoder and it specifically states the speaker is too big. So these situations are already realised, and therefore, these guides feature a way forward for modellers with step by step instructions for some of the none TTS ready locos. In this particular case it does extend the wires so as to fit the speaker in the tender. I am not saying this is the best way but the guide is as professional as you could get and the magazine itself provides many installations for not just Hornby decoders or locomotives. I am not sure if every single model is covered but it offers information on locomotives released from 2008 on. In my opinion it's worth the £ 6.99 for the read and knowledge base. I hope they produce more.

 

I do echo though that for the good of the Hobby as a whole, for people just wanting to play trains with the minimum of fuss, not withstanding that model making in its very essence suggests a degree of dexterity and various skills, I do believe the literature could definitely be more informative. Almost all sellers let you know whether something specifically fits a specific model. Even the box literature for a new brush for the vacuum cleaner I just bought told me which ones it would specifically fit without chopping lumps of plastic off.

[ColinB]

I bought a couple of Hornby A4 TTS decoders and I must admit they are good value for money, compared with the others available. I have found that with locos that have that 4 pin connector between loco and tender, yes the supplied speaker fits OK, for the others you have to fit a much smaller speaker. A word of warning, I was testing one of my locos with the TTS sound fitted and the speaker sitting on the loco chassis without the body fitted just to check it was working properly. Unfortunately the speaker fell off, and shorted out on the chassis. Bye, bye TTS module so be warned. I remember on my days designing car radios, that shorts on audio devices were terminal. With my Britannia locos I intend replacing the 2 pin tender connector with the 4 pin one so I can put the DCC module in the tender, but this brings other issues like how do you control lights in the loco without a separate dcc function only decoder.

[ColinB]

I forgot to mention, but I don't know if the Tornado version is the same, but the speaker holder that is supplied with the A4 kit, is slightly too small. Fortunately I didn't need to use it, but it seemed a fraction too small.