When are Hornby going to fix gap in dcc solution with loco detection?

[David1707822318]

Hornby has talked about giving us loco detection system for RailMaster, please please now the HMDC has been released, this is the right time for Hornby to look into adding loco detection to their DCC offering, which is a big gap right now and forcing people to look a JMRI or other solutions away from Hornby. Please help pushing Hornby to look at loco detection solution for RailMaster. An infrared sensor added to the RailMaster program will give us a good solution.

[David1707822318]

Related link:

https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/loco-detection-availability-lets-start-a-sweep?ccm_paging_p=68#end-of-replies

[Yelrow]

David, i suggest you ask Hornby, as they don’t read this forum. I would not however hold your breath, as everything originally planned, several years ago, will be out of date, I would imagine. On a lighter note, the cost to buy and set up now, could be considerable.

[David1707822318]

I have been doing this hobby for only 4 months, and I have ran into limitations. If Hornby want to lead the future of model rails, as they have said with the introduction for HMDC, they need to lead in 'loco detection' too. And I am sure if they have any economics leaders behind them they know this. Have loved Hornby products in the short time I have owned them, but if I can see this limitation after only 4 months, I am sure they are many others, who have been wait years or just move on to JMRI (or other solution), which is a shame for Hornby. If any one know a good solution please let me know.

Thanks for allowing me to rant.

[Chrissaf]

David you wrote in my other 'redirection' post the following.

It is most definitely a RailMaster / Software question as John [Yelrow] quite correctly replied in the 'redirection' post. Hornby's planned implementation of 'Loco Detection' hardware IS ONLY supported [if it ever gets released] by the Hornby RailMaster software product. Hornby's 'Loco Detection' was planned to be a set of very custom 'hardware' that has no capability to run 'stand alone' with any other Hornby controller, the planned hardware was written specifically into RailMaster as a RailMaster enhancement to connect to RailMaster via USB Hornby specific protocols. None of Hornby's controller products currently support the 'Loconet' protocols required to integrate any form of hardware only based 'Loco Detection' products.

[David1707822318]

Disappointed but understanding thank you

[Fishmanoz]

In fact, RM has been fitted for but not with LD for some years now. In Design Mode, you can add a sensor to your track. Then by right clicking the sensor, you can include what to do when a detection is made from the list of commands in the sticky post at the top of the forum (thanks to PJ who compiled the list).

The problem - the sensors, loco tags and LDM (Loco Detection Module) hardware needed for the full solution have yet to appear.

[96RAF]

An enterprising chap with access to other makes of loco detection could of course try it with RM and see if any of the alien kit will work.

The important bit is will the collector module talk to RM. The type of sensor could be any trip method.

Often the data handling protocols used are common so a lucky hit would do us all a favour.

[Fishmanoz]

Certainly could be difficult Rob. We know for a start detections are supposed to include loco ID, speed and direction, supposedly read by the detector from the tag under the loco. Then that is relayed by the LDM via USB to the PC running RM so the instructions held for the detector in RM can be actioned.

Might take longer than the availability of the hardware.

[zeroOneman]

I gave up waiting for loco detection long ago. But I do like using RailMaster, so I have developed my own Arduino based signal decoder to automate my railway. The decoder currently controls 15 signals. Each signal has an ABC braking module associated with it. All the loco decoders that I use support ABC braking. By doing this, whenever a loco approaches a signal set to danger it stops at the signal. Once the signal is cleared, the loco moves off. I have also developed my own block detection modules that feed into the decoder. If a section in front of a signal is occupied it will be set to danger regardless of what it has been set to by RailMaster, once the block is cleared the signal is returned to the 'railmaster state'.

I like to think of this as signal detection rather than loco detection. I have started documenting all of this at:

Mega signal decoder | Shedend Railway

[RB51]

A considerable piece of work on logic, software and construction. Well done. R-

[RDS]

@zeroOneman

That is very impressive. Thank you for sharing.

Being the person that started the Loco Detection Sweep on the Forum, I am as disappointed as anyone that the Hornby System has not yet appeared. I have opted for the Raspberry Pi, to control and Monitor a few Electronic Circuits (not model Railway), so that would be my preference if I was able to pursue my own system.

I also currently run into the Buffers, to ensure an accurate starting point on most of the well over 100 RM programs I have written.

The details we were given about the Hornby LD system, back in 2014/15 suggested it would be an extremely capable system in conjunction with RailMaster, that in itself is an incredibly powerful package.

[zeroOneman]

If you're still running into the buffers I would highly recommend putting braking modules at the ends of your lines & if your decoders don't support ABC, swapping them for zimo ones. The most impressive bit about ABC braking is, that once you've got it set up, it doesn't matter what speed your loco enters the braking zone at - it will always slow down and stop in the same place.

[RDS]

If you're still running into the buffers I would highly recommend .....

 

 

Thanks, I will look at what that involves. I always reverse into my Sidings, would it still work?

[zeroOneman]

Yes, the only thing to look out for is that the braking only starts when the loco enters the braking zone, if you need help you can contact me through the web site. My branch line has an EMU running from one end to the other, I have a braking module at each end , which stops the train in the station, I then just reverse the direction of the train in Railmaster and it moves off back to the other end.

[rpjallan]

I have just purchased my first Zimo sound decoder. What ABC modules are you using?

[zeroOneman]

I have just purchased my first Zimo sound decoder. What ABC modules are you using?

I made my own and modules, you can find details on my website

[ColinB]

Has anyone ever seriously thought about this one. To do serious loco detection you really need to know the DCC address of the loco, which is a big issue. Sure you can detect a loco, but how do you know which one it is? Now I think DCC has a facilty for reading back the loco address, but to do this you would need sections of isolated track at the detection area or a different system for detecting the loco id. That is why I suspect Hornby has not implemented it. I can think of loads of ways of doing it badly but to do it properly you need a system that detects the ID of the loco via DCC.

[Fishmanoz]

Colin, no issue at all for the proposed Hornby system. We already know it has sensors mounted in sleepers which are then connected to a module which in turn gives returns to RM via USB (50 sensors per module, something like that I think). There is already provision in the RM Setup screens for attaching two of these.

Detection tags are then attached under locos (and rolling stock for that matter) and these are associated with your locos in RM via the loco setup.

This system is then reputed to allow RM to determine loco ID, speed and direction when detected. How it does this has never been published. Then you should remember that RM does not contain any positional information on anything on or part of your layout, including the sensors themselves. Only you know positions.

Now go to the sticky thread at the top of this forum for the list of commands available for determining actions when detections are recorded.

Finally, in the RM layout design screen, sensors are one of the items you can install in your layout. Try putting one in your layout and you can now right click it to get to its setup configuration and see how you can include a number of the commands against each sensor to carry out quite complex logical outcomes of detections.

All this was available in RM at least 5 years ago (check the date on the commands list post) and was subject of ongoing development at the time as an initial list of commands was include in one update and a longer list in a later update. Nobody has checked for ages to see what is there currently.

And the hardware has never appeared.

[96RAF]

Colin - RM already knows which loco is being controlled and its speed and direction, hence when a sensor indicates a hit then RM will have a good idea which loco that is. As Fishy said the LD loco tags would hold some such ID info.

As to stand alone loco ID feedback this is covered by Railcom which Hornby supports for the old Sapphire decoder and is an auto-select feature of the Elite as of v1.2 i.e. it is default off until a Railcom decoder needs it e.g. Sapphire fuel burn feature reading back values to the controller on the main.

As I understood it a lash up of the LD hardware had been demonstrated as working around three years ago and it was then a case of productionising the modules, sensors, etc things like wire connectors, case design, packaging and so on. Then there was obviously a change of plan, possibly part of the moratorium put in place to save costs at the time. We sit on our thumbs in hope of LD showing face in RM.

[RDS]

Great post Fishy, very well explained.

[St1ngr4y]

Hi all,

The biggest query I have had for the last few years since the proposed Hornby LD was announced, is how would it integrate with the current RM program format. The only answer I can come up with is that it won't. LD implies that the user wants to automate the running of the trains, and currently the RM programming facility provides that automation. Going from the list of commands available when a LD sensor is triggered, the actions can be applied to signals, points and locos, and you can play a sound through the pc speakers or run a program. Now if the train is being run via a RM program, and it triggers a sensor which tells the loco to stop, then how does the program which is running know that this has happened? Also, having stopped the train because of a sensor, how do you get the train going again - "manually" or by running another program?

For this, and many other reasons, a couple of years ago I decided to have a try at creating my own RM replacement software, which includes a detection system based on simple micro magnetic reed switch sensors installed at key locations around my layout. Each loco has a small magnet fitted underneath, and each train rake has a magnet fitted under the last vehicle. I have 30 (soon to be 32) sensors installed, and they all connect to the pc via great piece of GB electronics called a BBI-32, manufactured by a company called Leo Bodnar. To keep things simple, my software caters for user written "programs" which can run a single loco to take its train from A to B. The software caters for up to 4 programs to be executed concurrently, and there is a locking system which prevents a program from starting if points and locations on its route have been locked by another program which is already running. For an individual program, the route of the train will take it over several sensors, and the user-written instructions will include commands to "wait" for a named sensor to be triggered, carry out some commands, then "wait" until the next sensor is triggered and so on. In this way, there is no need for the sensor to be "clever" enough to pass back the DCC Id of the loco, because the program running the loco already knows this.

By the way, the LD system I have created, which includes the BBI-32, micro magnetic reed switches, magnets, and wire, cost me around £70.

Ray

[96RAF]

... and having seen videos of Ray’s LD programmed system in action it works just the way he says it does.

[zeroOneman]

I have just purchased my first Zimo sound decoder. What ABC modules are you using?

 

 

As I mentioned, there is information on my website, but if you want further information on making your own BM1 modules, or would like some made for you, please don't hesitate to contact me via the website.

Also, if there is anyone out there that would like to implement the same style of "signal detection" that I have done, I'd love to hear from you & to help you achieve what you're after.

[96RAF]

Scroll down this page for DIY 5-diode modules . . .

http://www.halton96th.org.uk/page33.html