Rookie question: powering multiple tracks using turnouts?

[JS84Z]

Hi all

I'm new to powering tracks and stuff. Basically I want to have 2 loops of tracks and I want both of them to receive electricity from the one DCC controller at the same time using minimal wiring. Is it possible to extend electricity from 1st track to the 2nd track via a turnout? Would that cause problems such as short circuiting etc?

[Brew Man]

Yes you can get clips which fit into the points so that both exits from the point become permanently live. Hornby code is R8232. I use them, so far without any problem, whereas some folk prefer to feed power direct from the controller to all sections of the track.

[JS84Z]

Yes you can get clips which fit into the points so that both exits from the point become permanently live. Hornby code is R8232. I use them, so far without any problem, whereas some folk prefer to feed power direct from the controller to all sections of the track.

 

 

Do brands sell turnouts that are made “live” already with these clips?

Also, if you feed power directly from the controller to all the tracks, that means the turnouts need to be insulated when they join the tracks together right?

[96RAF]

@John

No and No.

You may find pre-clipped tracks in some digital train sets but no one to my knowledge sells points that are live to both ways.

DCC track is meant to be all live, hence use of what I call bodge clips in lieu of either link wires or bus wiring.

Just remember those clips are steel and not good conductors, so they can get hot if passing high currents to feed several locos across a point.

[Chrissaf]

John,

It sounds as if you might benefit from reading Chapters 5 & 6 in my downloadable 'Getting Started' PDF document. Chapter 5 describes powering a basic Hornby layout for DC Analogue, and Chapter 6 describes the powering of the same basic layout for DCC. In other words the basic differences between the two control systems.

The PDF download can be found here:

Getting Started [sets and Track Extension Packs] :: Hornby Hobbies

I believe Bachmann make DCC friendly points that are non-isolating for 00 Scale Code100 track.

[JS84Z]

Just remember those clips are steel and not good conductors, so they can get hot if passing high currents to feed several locos across a point.

 

 

What are the potential problems pertaining to the heat? At the moment, I only have plans for 2 (maybe 3 max) locos running simultaneously on 2 tracks.

[JS84Z]

John,

It sounds as if you might benefit from reading Chapters 5 & 6 in my downloadable 'Getting Started' PDF document...........

 

 

Thanks that was a great read!!

I guess my biggest concern was short circuiting like with direct current, like if I have 2 parallel tracks connected by 2 "live" turnouts, it'd short circuit. But with alternate current on DCC, all joints/tracks can be "live" at all times, correct?

Also, for DCC, when R8232 clips are applied, does it even matter if the points are electro or insulated (such as the Peco electrofrog and insulfrog points)?

I've done some digging around, it looks like for pure DCC, to keep things simple, I should just go with electrofrog points in conjunction with R8232 clips to keep all tracks "live" at all times.

[jane1707819582]

Point clips not needed when using elecrofrog points

[JS84Z]

Point clips not needed when using elecrofrog point

 

 

Does that mean all Hornby made points are insulfrogs?

[Chrissaf]

Yes

All Hornby points are not only 'Insulfrogs' but they are 'Isolating Points' as well, which means that they act like electrical switches to route power into the route that they are switched to.

But before deciding on Electrofrogs, you really need to understand their wiring requirements when used with DCC. When used with DCC, all the Electrofrog points with the exception of points that lead into a 'dead end' siding, need Insulated Rail Joiners to be added to the two divergent rails that lead into the metal frog. This now creates dead sections of track that then need additional power feeds from the DCC controller. In essence, if you use Electrofrogs on a DCC layout you are now committing yourself to implementing a DCC BUS power distribution solution [soldering required]. Without the IRJ's you will create permanent 'short circuits' on the layout.

As others have said, you do not use R8232 DCC point clips with Electrofrog points. If you use Hornby DCC R8232 clips on a PECO Electrofrog point taken straight out of the box, you will instantly generate a 'short circuit' due to the 'all metal' frog rail configuration.

"What are the potential problems pertaining to the heat?"

In severe cases, it has been reported that R8232 DCC point clips have been observed to glow red hot and melt the plastic surrounding their fitted location. I stress that this is a rare event, but some less severe warming of the clip is highly feasible. Heat is a function of Ohms Law. Pass a current through a resistance and heat is generated. Watts [Heat} = Current² x Resistance. A very small amount of resistance can generate a lot of heat. The R8232 DCC point clips only need to become a little loose and/or tarnish is allowed to build up on the rails they are fitted to, and resistance can be created as a result. Resistance as well as the issue of generating heat, can also affect the quality of the DCC digital signal commands.

[JS84Z]

OK to keep things simple, I should just get all Hornby points and put R8232 clips on them and to make all the tracks "live".

I'm not actually doing scenery layout and stuff, I'm simply routing a few tracks around my house with maybe 2-3 locomotives running on them, kind of like what Sam's train (YouTube) does in his attic but not as complex, probably 3 tracks tops.

[96RAF]

In that case - yes. The clips will cope with the current requirements of a couple of locos, but you could still use link wires loop to loop to improve conductivity. If using link wires then make sure you remove the capacitors as these are designed for DC use and include suppression, which is not needed for DCC and interferes with the DCC signal.

[RDS]

This picture may assist. It shows my previous layout.

Before I added droppers to each siding, the whole layout was powered by one connection to the track at the position shown by the red triangle, with clips on all the points.

It did surprise me that it worked, perfectly, and I only eventually added droppers to the sidings because I was considering being able to isolate the sidings to give me some form of Loco ID. (which I have not done!)

Just to add, this is not a recommendation but it takes the use of the clips to the other extreme.

[Brew Man]

Yes, I acknowledge that the clips will have their limitations depending on load requirements and as I put my new layout down shortly, I will probably include a bus - seems appropriate to do so, even though for a 6.5' x 4' layout the clips would probably work fine.

[Brew Man]

@RDS

What was the inner radius you had there? Radius 1 would seem a bit limiting as to what you could get into the sidings.

[RDS]

@Brew Man

I use Radius 1, 2, 3 and 4.

I have since changed the inner sidings configuration and I have now have 19 sidings all accessible individually from the inner circuit. Each of my Loco's has it's own 'home' Siding.

I don't have any problems with Radius 1, regarding derailments but then again I don't try to operate it at Scalextric type speeds!

[Brew Man]

Thanks. I've read of a few people saying they use radius 1 track, (though maybe it was you each time grinning). I have a few radius 1 curves, so might experiment with some larger locos. It would certainly open up more possibilities if I can introduce more track.

[JS84Z]

you could still use link wires loop to loop to improve conductivity. If using link wires then make sure you remove the capacitors as these are designed for DC use and include suppression, which is not needed for DCC and interferes with the DCC signal.

 

 

if I use link wire to power both loops directly from the controller, what happens when I throw the turnout/point? would it short-circuit?

[Chrissaf]

Only if the link wires are reversed.

In DCC you have to get into the mindset that all the track is considered electrically to be the same single loop, even if there are more than one loop physically. Therefore making cross-connections between different parts of the layout track has no adverse affect. Subject to any physical links not being reversed.

As you can see in the above left hand sketch. As long as red rails only physically connect to other red rails, and black rails to black. Then no 'short circuits' are created, irrespective of the routes selected in the points.

[JS84Z]

Thnx, Chrisaaf for the clear diagrams.

One last question, does DCC use the same power connection as analogue DC such as the following?

https://uk.hornby.com/products/power-connecting-clip-r602

https://uk.hornby.com/products/power-track-r8206

If so, this means I can convert any Hornby train sets into DCC by just swapping in a DCC controller (decoder installed on the locos too of course).

[Chrissaf]

No, you cannot use the R602 or R8206 track power connectors on DCC unless they are modified first. These, as well as R8201 link wires, are designed for and only meant to be used on DC Analogue layouts. This is why Hornby have the alternative R8241 & R8242 products for use on DCC.

The R602, R8206 & R8201 track connectors can be modified to emulate R8241 & R8242 products by opening them up and removing the Analogue suppression capacitors found inside them. If the capacitors are not removed, the DCC signal can be corrupted and affect the ability of the DCC decoders to understand the DCC command being given to them.

The modified R602, R8206 & R8201 connectors can still be used on an analogue DC layout. You just lose some electrical noise suppression capability which is rarely needed in these more modern times.

So yes, by modifying the connectors [and fitting decoders], DC Analogue train sets can be upgraded to DCC.

[JS84Z]

Thank you! That clears everything up!

Moderator Comment

John

I haver edited your post to remove the picture (originally posted on the 4th June 2021 at 9:00:37) that you had created by using the blue button to reply. There is no need to display the same picture again.

Please do not use the Blue button to reply to posts. Just scroll down the page and type in the Blank area

[JS84Z]

No, you cannot use the R602 or R8206 track power connectors on DCC unless they are modified first. These, as well as R8201 link wires, are designed for and only meant to be used on DC Analogue layouts. This is why Hornby have the alternative R8241 & R8242 products for use on DCC.

 

 

Is it possible to buy alternative brands of R8241 & R8242, such as Peco or Atlas? Better yet, is it possible to just buy the connectors without the track? I'm asking this because I personally prefer the Peco code 100 concrete sleeper flexitracks rather than the black wood sleeper tracks made by Hornby.

[96RAF]

Peco certainly do track connectors to suit their kit. I would guess Atlas have similar.

Hornby point clips will be adequate to power a pair of loops from one power connection. If you are using Peco track then their electrofrog points are not self isolating like the Hornby ones.

[Chrissaf]

Hornby track have manufactured recesses in the sleeper webbing to accept the prongs of the Hornby track connector. These recesses aren't replicated on other track brands. Therefore, it is unlikely that the Hornby track connectors will fit in PECO concrete track.

It is just so much easier to just solder wires directly to the track rails.