Problem Points - Is there a Solution?

[Stephen in Kerry]

After 9 months of solidly building my layout, it's at the stage where I want to run locos, but not just 'round and round'. There are 18 sets of points (all Hornby 100 gauge, with point clips fitted on a DCC layout).

The problem is that some sets of points, especially in areas where I want to run locos slowly and/or shunt, are stopping locos passing over them, when running at less than 60% throttle.

I think the track is straight, and as clean as I can get it. It seems that the locos stop where the point clips are located, some (but not all of the time). Most of the locos I have stop or judder on those points, with the exception of a very small and light Ruston shunter.

My questions are:

1. can the point clips be removed as the layout is now bus wired? If so might that help?
2. Is there anything that can be done other than adding 'stay-alives'. I have considered it, but I wouldn't know where to start?

Thanks for any suggestions.

[96RAF]

1. Yes the bus will ensure track continuity of power past the points.
2. Check the points are dead flat adding an extra track pin at mid point after drilling the sleeper.

Edit:

Go across your points with a track tester (led and 1k resistor) to make sure there is continuity on the switch rails - as indicated by GS later in the thread.

[Brew Man]

If all your rails are wired to the bus then yes, you can remove the clips. The inherent problem with Hornby point, and for that matter Peco set track points is the frogs are insulated. That means that a loco, especially a short wheel base one is prone to losing connection with the track when passing over the frog. The only reliable solution, as far as I can see is to use electrofrog points where the whole of the frog is conductive. These though require special consideration when it comes to connecting them up. Unfortunately they don't come in set track geometry and only Peco make them. I've pretty well moved over to electrofrog and have a whole box full of Hornby points that may or may not get used.

EDIT: Also, Rob's suggestion of checking the points for flatness is sound advice.

[ColinB]

If you really want to remove the problem, replace the points with electrofrog points. Trouble is this brings a whole set of issues although I must admit once resolved does give much better running. My DCC layout is wired up with isolating sections before each point so that if the point is set wrong the train stops. I also just set up sections so I can isolate parts of the track, awfully useful if you have a short and cannot find it. With normal points the big issue seems to be the plastic piece in the frog. On a lot of my old ones the plastic expands differently to the rail so sometimes an 0-6-0 tank pirouettes on its middle wheel that is resting on the plastic part. I don't use shorting links, I am still trying to work out why you would need them, but I suppose it all depends how you wire your layout.

[Rog RJ]

Are you sure the track is clean? To me, it doesn't look very shiny. Maybe just the way it looks on the photos.

[Going Spare]

A 'belt & braces' approach, but it may be worth checking that the sprung tabs on the point switch rails (that move from side to side) have not been deformed or have ballast preventing contact being made with the underside of the stock rails (the fixed ones) to transfer electricity to the blades.

[RDS]

The most effective change I made to my layout, is as 96RAF has suggested in point 2 of his post above, which is to add an extra pin in the centre. Drill the sleeper with a 1mm drill.

You can check if this is likely to make any difference by pressing down on the centre of the point. If there is ANY movement at all, it should be worth doing.

[Stephen in Kerry]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I'll respond without reference to specific members if that's ok.

My favourite piece of kit is the Pico rail cleaner. I've actually got two, and I'm using it every 10 minutes. If the track doesn't look clean it must be the lighting in the room. I can assure you the top of the rails are spotless.

I've had the end edge of a metal ruler on the track, checking for gaps and I can't see any on the problem points. So I can only assume they are flat. But I'll have another look and also so see if there is any ballast or dirt lurking under the rails.

Some of you have mentioned problems with the electrofrog points, but haven't really said what they may be, or how I go about fitting them. If anyone would like to offer further information I think it's my only option for now.

I will probably have all of the locos fitted with 'stay alives' at some point. But not in the next month or two, and it may be more economical to look at the track itself.

Thanks again for your help.

Stephen

[ColinB]

The issue with electrofrog points is mainly the frog. To get the best out of them you need to isolate the frog from the main point. Peco allow links which you push out for this. Originally I didn't bother so you just put isolating pieces in the right place and it works like an old point. Trouble is Peco's welding of the links isn't that great so they fall out on their own, so in my case you eventually have to power the frog separately. The easiest solution is to buy an autofrog device which does it for you and relies on the loco to set the polarity of the point, so not that big an issue it just that you have to wire it in. I have used them and they definitely work. Because I use isolating sections I use a double pole relay board to do the same, one side of the relay enables the isolating section the other does the frog. The way I drive the relay is to use the DCC on the blade of the point to switch a relay. If you are interested I will post a photo of the modified point. Alternatively you can use a microswitch on the point lever itself. Some point motors already have it integrated, seep being one. They definitely are a huge improvement.

[RDS]

... edge of a metal ruler on the track, checking for gaps and I can't see any on the problem points. So I can only assume they are flat...

 

 

If it is not all your points that does tend to suggest to me that not all your points are perfectly flat.

Incidentally, what wheel arrangement of Loco are causing problems. My own problem only occurred with 0-4-0, occasionally 0-6-0 wheel arrangement Loco's and in one case where the problem occurred on all my points, it was the wheel contacts on the Loco that needed adjustment.

 

 

[Stephen in Kerry]

@Going Spare and @RDS, et al. ColinB, thanks for the update on the Peco electrofrog points.

Well this is interesting. I used a mini file and cleaned out two tiny bits of ballast from underneath the point switch rails, and generally gave them a clean inside the flanges.

I've just had my Dapol large prairie running very slowly across one set of points, with no issues. It did stop for a second going in reverse, but that seems to be ok now.

I'm not so familiar with wheel arrangements yet, to just quote them off the cuff, but I'll have a look at the boxes tomorrow and come back to you, RDS.

And I'll also double check if the points are flat in the middle. Putting in an extra nail won't be a problem.

[96RAF]

Also have a look at the plastic check rail and frog parts of the point to see if the loco wheels are going through them without being deflected.

I had a Bachmann Jinty 0-6-0 which kept stopping on points and in that case it was the moulded spring hangers on the loco that were grounding on the points, so a file was applied to the loco bits to ensure adequate clearance, and now it runs across towing an auto-coach without grounding.

[wapples]

im someone that has used Hornby points with DCC clips and been exceptionally happy agreed you will find you did the right thing it might be the loco or rolling stock that just need some attention. I noticed this when running some older pre DCC stuff and it was everything from the coupler being like a mm too low etc. I’m sure it won’t be too much that DCC clip even though many shun at it I can report they came up

with a great soliution to bring layouts to DCC easily.