Why no small tender loco in initial TT120 phases?

[New08]

I get that Hornby can't do everything at once and also that they have chosen to prioritise locos like the A3, A4 and Duchess for impact in the initial phases.

However what I do not understand is why after Phase 1 and 2 following steam releases in Phase 3 goes for yet more larger tender locos with the Castle and 9F and even Phase 4 has just two 0-6-0 tank locos.

Why has nobody at Hornby thought to include a great all rounder the from the family of British 0-6-0 tender locos such as the Fowler 4F? These could be used on freight and passenger on main or branch lines, for shunting and even expresses in the form of excursion traffic - such incredible utility.

Simple enough mechanically, straightforward to fit DCC sound in, they would presumably be cheaper to produce than say an A4 and much more versatile.

The issue I have with the offers in the first four phases is that they are either small or large with nothing in between, same in diesel terms - just large ones, no Type 1 or 2 diesels like the Class 20, 24, 25, 27, 33...

In terms of running longer trains, TT120 is always going to be at a disadvantage compared to N as the surface area of an equivalent layout will be far greater. However it does have attractions for simple branch-line type layouts and shunting-planks where this isn't such an issue but the extra presence of TT120 may be appealing and surely this is an area that should be targeted to attract those looking beyond train-set appeal?

[Rallymatt]

Whatever we in enthusiast land think, no one has better market knowledge in UK than Hornby and ultimately for them it is a business. I think they do balance the enthusiasts requests with commercially viable projects pretty well on the whole. Hopefully the project continues to develop at the rapid pace it’s set off with and the more niche models come sooner than may have originally planned, but we will never know that detail. Longevity is inextricably linked to ROI 😁

[ntpntpntp]

I do tend to agree, we have a "prestige" train to run but nothing to do the shunting of the nice wagons which are starting to appear.

I resurrected an ancient TT3 Jinty last night and had pootling around with a rake of similarly ancient wagons, just to make a change from the express set :)

At the moment I can see myself storing the TT:120 collection away for now and getting on with other projects until such time as some small locos come along.

[Skelton Junction]

Agreed Nick, I can see a change of theme to somewhere European as there is motive power and rolling stock available. The 08 that’s looming isn’t going to be sufficient and there’s only so much landscaping and scenery to be done. Alternatively, I may employ the hours lighting the layout and electrifying the points and whatever else I can imagine to cover the mild disappointment I feel in having to wait for locomotives appropriate to my wishes.

[Fishmanoz]

Interesting to compare the launch with OO where many of the sets are of the smaller locos and goods variety.

I think we can see now that they had a 2-pronged approach - start at the big end then overlay that with HM7000 and do it all at quite attractive pricing. That gets the range kick-started and a lot of people wanting more.

Will then be a challenge to maintain the newby interest and pull in the enthusiasts.

[New08]

An 0-6-0 tender-loco isn't a "niche" model by any standard it is a bread and butter model and locos of this mid-sized type are I feel essential if Hornby want to maintain momentum and attract modellers to the scale.

I have an A4 "Easterner" set but I am sure there are many like me who will never be satisfied with a Pacific pulling three coaches round a trainset oval and as a modelling project in TT120 it won't form the basis. I bought it because I was intrigued and at the price it was worth a "punt". However while impressed by the quality I realised pretty much immediately that a continuous run layout comparable to N in terms of length of trains would take a significantly bigger baseboard footprint and wasn't viable, however a TT120 project a for small branch line terminus/shunting layout was, and I felt would be an enjoyable build, so I have ordered wagons (three delivered), a loco, a board and track for this.

The issue though is (and I feel sure I will not be alone in thinking this) that if all I can get for the foreseeable future that is remotely suitable to run on the said layout is an 08 (Even then ordered in BR blue as no green/black ones are available in the first run) I too may be thinking of parking the TT120 idea and reverting to my primary modelling scale (N).

My point is that Hornby has only a limited time to keep people like me engaged with the idea of modelling TT120 and bluntly it isn't going to do it with an 08 alone. Yes I am aware there are two small tank locos listed for Phase 4 but judging by the current speed of delivery I doubt they will be with us until 2025 and anyway welcome as they will ultimately be, they do nothing to address the lack of medium sized locos, and as I have said the same issue exists in the announced diesel range too.

[TheGreenGuit]

I couldn't agree more. I am developing a small layout featuring a branch line that served local quarries and I also have a distinct main line. This route (the Forcett branch), like so many others, was served by small and medium steam locomotives for over 100 years, not the Flying Scotsman. There don't appear to be any plain black painted locos of any type either.

In the last few years of opening, a Ruston & Hornsby diesel was used for local shunting at the quarries. I have bought an Arnold Kof II which is not right but is a similar shape.

I didn't think about this issue when I bought the initial set, track, new controllers etc. Now TT120 has taken off I hope it can be resolved as, apart from that, Hornby's TT120 is everything I could wish for.

As for the current shortage of straight track, it drives you round the bend.

[96RAF]

I bet Hornby Marketing wished they had a magic wand that could pop out one off wish list orders on demand. The reality of it is it takes a long time to design a loco and bring it to market and that decision is made on expected demand.

A few folk each wanting a rare breed of loco doesn’t fall into that business model, hence why there are every possible versions of the popular FS and Mallard to be seen.

Hornby are to be applauded for bringing TT:120 to the market but to provide a full inventory of locos will take many years.

[New08]

96RAF I am very aware of what the process steps of designing and manufacturing a model loco entails and that the likely lead time from initial concept to delivery can normally be measured in years.

An 0-6-0 tender loco (I gave the Fowler 4F as an example) or middle sized tank/tender locos more generally are hardly "rare breed" locos they were the backbone of real railways for many years and surely bread and butter models for any manufacturer?

Even when Tri-ang originally introduced TT3 it was the Jinty 0-6-0 Tank which was one of the initial releases along with sets (passenger and freight) based around it. That basic utility loco gave a lot more potential to grow a layout than a large express type because it could be put to use on much more.

Maybe Hornby's vision for promotion of TT120 is not as a modeller's scale but more about having large locos pulling three coaches around an oval of track, in which case I can't see me remaining interested in the scale for very long.

[TT-Man]

After initially being very excited about TT:120 my enthusiasm cooled when I accepted the reality that it could be years before there is a large enough range to be worthwhile building the layout I had in mind (5m x 2m on 3 levels).

For now I have returned to OO and am just collecting TT items against the day when I will have accumulated enough stock to make building a TT layout worthwhile.

[Mulsanne88]

I think it’s a great shame that some folk are giving up on tt120 already.

My view is that we are all at the start of what will be an exciting journey into a new scale

The fact that I have purchased LNER locos is great, I would never have considered them in 00 as GWR is more my thing, but sometimes having few choices can be a benefit

Yes I am busting to get hold of some diesels but I would much prefer Hornby getting things right rather then rushing them into production

I say keep the faith and in twenty years time you can say you were there at the beginning

[Clement Matchett]

As for the current shortage of straight track, it drives you round the bend.

Excellent!

It does!

Unfortunately for Hornby, it drives you to Peco.

[Clement Matchett]

“…twenty years time..”

Not for me!

….and mind you don’t crash your Bentley, or not for you, either!

[D9020 Nimbus]

Of course, Triang never did an 0-6-0 tender engine in TT-3, and the only 0-6-0 engine they did in OO for many years was the 3F which could share the "Jinty" chassis. The next time they actually produced such a loco would be the Dean Goods and 4F from the Airfix/Dapol tooling.

But I don't see the logic behind some choices they've made. Why the LNER Toad B/E? There's no LNER freight loco in the range other than the J94 — a postwar loco and the brake van is in pre-1936 livery. If an A3 ever pulled a goods train in LNER days it would have been an express goods which would have used the Toad D—almost identical to the BR standard variant, which they've done in OO recently and which would be a better choice.

Why the 21 ton mineral wagon? This type was used mostly for power station traffic (a few were later used for scrap metal traffic). The 16 ton version was far more common.

At least Peco might produce this—they are re-tooling their N gauge version.

As for diesels, they have planned the class 31 which is a type 2, although it's the longest (and also the longest-lived). They haven't modelled the 25 in OO for a long time, although it was highly regarded in its day. 31s were used on branch lines in East Anglia; they'd be more common on such lines than class 20s would be.

[New08]

D9020 Nimbus thanks for correcting me re: the Brush Type 2 (31) yes, a fair point that it is being produced in Phase 4 and is a Type 2 and was used on East Anglian branches pretty much from introduction so it has some potential. That said, for a small Branch line Terminus model it is a bit large (I am thinking things like head-shunt clearance on a layout constrained by length).

It is true that the Triang TT3 range didn't include an 0-6-0 tender loco but then the range never grew that large, however there was a 61xx Prairie and I have seen pictures of a 43xx which was planned but never produced (using the 61xx chassis paired with a Castle tender I understand). I used the 4F as an example of a small tender loco because of it's simplicity and because it has appeared in Hornby's OO range, but I was actually referring to smaller tender locos in general, so that would open up quite a lot of possibilities from existing OO CAD. However, I am pretty sure that Simon K said all TT120 models would all be new from the ground up and have nothing in common with OO models design wise, maybe I got that wrong?

Nothing said changes the basic issue though, which is that a range consisting almost exclusively "big" locos probably for the first two to three years will not cater for those looking at a small end to end layout, and as I recall marketing blurb (or was it Simon K?) has mentioned use of window sills as a potential location it doesn't add up.

I appreciate that it takes time to introduce a range but in order to cater for a wider spread of modellers and potential layout types I would have though more of a balance between small medium and large loco types would have been provided.

I absolutely agree re: the choice of brake van and mineral wagon, in BR days there are plenty of examples of A3s and A4s on fitted freights with a long wheelbase 20T LNER (or BR derivative) brake van on the rear (e.g. Waverley Route) so the example provided, albeit a very nice model seems very odd. Same goes for the ubiquitous 16T mineral wagon, in fitted and unfitted form it just seems such a no-brainer to me.

Anyway, I'll await the 08 and the rest of the wagons I have on order, but otherwise my current thinking is to put the idea of a TT120 BLT layout on a bit of a back burner for now I think. It could be that in 20 years time things will indeed be rosy for TT120, but on the other hand if the right balance of models don't arrive in the early stages interest may wane. Undoubtedly Hornby do believe they have it "right" and don't see the same issue as me at all, but I recall SK saying that they didn't do market research as such, relying on years of market experience, so we will have to wait and see.

[Singer33]

I am in the camp of plenty of stuff to be doing whilst I wait for more stock to come online.

But I do think there is validity in the point, even a Black 5 or a Hall would bring versatility to a steam era layout.

As for Hornby know best, well maybe they do but, on the other hand, people here are saying they are thinking of walking away.

[TheGreenGuit]

Mind the gap.

The website currently lists 12 goods wagons eras 2/3/4 yet no appropriate steam locomotive or any definitive indication of timing of release. Rather than a grand plan it appears something has gone wrong. Let us call it a lack of joined up thinking!

A key factor here is the lack of competition. If only Heljan had progressed the small steam loco in its abortive plans last summer, Hornby would have at least thought of responding.

From my personal view my plans have stalled a bit and I'm incurring unnecessary expenditure on top of considerable required expenditure. I've bought a Kof II loco just to have something small and dark pulling wagons round the track (only one wagon has arrived so far). I need a third loco but I'm reluctant to splash out on another model I didn't want in the first place.

As for the competition Peco seem to have some wagons in the pipeline but there is nothing obvious from any of the loco manufacturers to get them out of the sidings.

There is a straightforward solution here. First Hornby have to recognise the problem. Second, an early and definite announcement of a release i.e with a date included. Third, why not a goods train set?

[Rallymatt]

It has to be a balancing act between what is achievable, what is popular and what is desirable.

Launching TT:120 with Gresley Pacific’s is a no brainer, especially in FS’s Centenary. From a technical perspective the opportunity to develop A4’s and A3’s from that chassis and some shared components. Hornby have a lot of experience in selling toy trains, they know what sells and commercially the range needs to achieve the highest volumes possible to show ‘proof of concept’

I appreciate TT3 from 50 years ago had a range of small locos in early stages, but railways were very different then, steam was current, mixed freight was current, it’s not been that way for a very long time. Peoples experience of steam and small shunting locos will be at a preserved railway, big stars of steam still appear on the mainline and it’s people’s memories that influence what they buy in toy trains. So there is a lot of logic to the initial loco line up. I agree some of the wagons, whilst superb, are odd, I think the attractive PO liveries has a lot to do with it.

The intended range and delivery schedules were widely published before the first sets even arrived in the warehouse, so it’s not like people didn’t know what they were getting, or not getting as the case is…. SK has already confirmed that there are small locos under development, I’m sure the 08 will be important from that development perspective, what cross over parts and techniques can be utilised etc

I’d love a BR Standard 4MT, good do it all loco from the era I am modelling. I won’t know if it’s in development until it’s almost done, because Hornby never divulge details of projects in their early stages. I have been creative and looked abroad for locos to do particular jobs at HighFell, and there is, as Singer33 says, so much to do on the layout 😁

[D9020 Nimbus]

But in their catalogues Hornby have listed a sizeable number of items, and those in phases 3 and 4 don't appear on the website. But SK has hinted that "two 0-6-0s" — presumably the J94 and 57xx — are now in tooling and set to appear in early 2024, ahead of the phase 1 or 2 Duchess.

It would help if Hornby could do what Bachmann used to, before they changed their announcement policy, and give a clear indication, perhaps in the club magazine, of the status of each of the announced models, I.e. research/in tooling/first e.p./livery samples/in production. It does seem apparent that the order is shifting, and it would help to clarify things.

As it is, a long list of the type Hornby have provided, serves only to frustrate modellers and deter competition — perhaps the latter is the objective.

[Rallymatt]

I think all these things are ‘organic’ schedules change, I do recall the Duchess was pushed back due to the wide range of variations on the class and they want to ensure they can cover as many of these as possible. With any manufacturing project I wouldn’t presume anything until the next stage is done…

[Skelton Junction]

I’m staying with TT regardless as it has made me catch the bug after 4(5 years away and I’m thoroughly enjoying the time spent.

[BritInVanCA]

I am no expert but if Hornby produced an early livery 08 wouldn't that overlap with some of the steam locomotives in phase 1? Then we could have a prototypical operation without the need for another loco. Of course you could just invoke the "my layout, my rules" guideline!

[Too Tall]

Of course you could just invoke the "my layout, my rules" guideline!

 

 

I think that rule HAS to apply to us until the range expands TBH slightly_smiling_face

[Hobby11]

I think the answer is they'll do what sells best and large tender locos, modern large diesels and express diesel units (such as the HST) will do best. After that we'll start to see others appearing, probably mixed traffic sized locos such as 24/5 and 37s in diesel form and Black Five or equivalent in steam. The trouble with 0-6-0 tender locos is they didn't get around so for everyone who wanted a 3/4f you'd find the same number wanting the GWR or LNER version. At least the diesels I mentioned and the Black Five tended to get just about everywhere. I suspect we'll see small tank locos before small tender locos, I think a Pannier and J94 have been mentioned? At least then we'll have some 0-6-0 chassis that can be used under 3D prints of the tender locos and other tank locos.

Having said all that we need to be patient, it's going to be a long lead time, if people can't accept that they need to go and look at N or 00!

[New08]

Hobby,

Indeed, and as things stand presently I has reached that conclusion.

I now have sufficient track and materials (the PECO buffer-stops are exquisite incidentally) to build the small layout I had planned as a small side-project, and there is no reason not to stick with purchase of the 08 and remaining wagons I have on order. However I have decided to otherwise park my TT120 project for now, not make any further significant spend on it and revert to my primary modelling interest (N) until more of a range becomes available.

I do have a spare small diorama board and so may have a bit of an experiment in the meantime using that. This may not be the right forum (but as it is still TT120 I will say it anyway) I am loving the look of the PECO track and so laying a small section and a buffer stop, ballasting and weathering will hopefully validate plans to continue my TT120 layout later.