TT120 for Australia

[Geoff-359082]

Ok everyone.

I'm getting the run around from Hornby regarding TT120 Club for Australia as they have an agreement with a distribution agent called Southern Models so they are excluding Australians from joining.

Southern Models states that

The company does not sell via the internet or direct to the public.

So it's a bit hard to see how we can get the TT120 magazine, Club exclusives or finding out what's coming except to visit a retailer which quickly sells out of everything as no-one has knowledge of what's coming.

What do you say Hornby?

[P-Henny]

What do you say Hornby?

 

 

Geoff,

As this is your very first post, you won't know this. But be aware that the forum is all 'user generated content'. Thus it is not an active interaction platform with Hornby staff. The best way to make your views and comments known to Hornby is to contact them direct. In some scenarios a mod might bring a particular post to the attention of Hornby, but this cannot be relied upon as a way to message Hornby management or departments.

[Fishmanoz]

Geoff, to be precise, Southern Model Supplies or SMS is Hornby’s exclusive Aust wholesaler. They have done retail deals with only a limited number of retail hobby shops.

I don’t think Hornby intended that they couldn’t also supply to Aust from their online shop. In fact, they were doing this for the first couple of weeks after launch until I assume SMS complained. I think Hornby stuffed up and have left us stuck with it. I’m lucky to have very early on joined the club and ordered a set, both of which they have honoured.

Nothing is “sold out” in reality. The fact is nothing has ever been delivered to Aust despite assurances otherwise as recently as last month. About then all the retailers changed their order status from pre-order to sold out. Frontline Hobbies have confirmed that situation to me. They are sitting on about $450 of my paid for but unfulfilled track order since January.

Your only way around this is if you can specify a non-Aust delivery address in your membership - possibly to a relative/friend/colleague/freight forwarder somewhere else. The closest is NZ.

PS. You only need to put one carriage return between paras. The forum bizarrely adds another itself. You can edit out the extras you put in your original post using the 3 dots menu on the right of your post.

[Moccasin]

Hopefully their current agreement will expire soon and Hornby can renegotiate or just sell direct. Doesn’t help you, or fellow Australian customers, in the short term though. Maybe the new UK/Aus trade agreement will help things!

@Fishy sorry to hear about your suspended order. I hope it gets resolved soon.

[John-359193]

I feel for our Aussie mates. Here in NZ, I just received an order in 6 days from the UK. I Hope they sort something out for you soon.

[Rallymatt]

I couldn’t make out if the import concessionaire deal with Southern Models was a legacy thing or new just prior to launch of TT:120. Either way this current situation doesn’t seem to be doing anyone any favours. Hornby are not moving stock, Southern are not earning, selected dealers are not earning and customers not being fairly dealt with.

That might open the door for Hornby to look again at this.

[Moccasin]

I think the agreement is for all/most of Hornby’s brands, as they seem to distribute/import Humbrol, Airfix and Pocher too. I presume that Hornby didn’t think it applied to direct sales of TT120 and so started to sell direct to Australia.

I recall Simon Kohler saying something very nice and supportive about SMS in one of the YouTube videos and assumed that this was to try to smooth the relationship. It certainly seems like the agreement/contract/licence needs re-visiting and re-negotiating but that might cause issues with their established markets across all brands.

[Fishmanoz]

To be clear, this is a TT:120 arrangement only, it doesn't apply to anything else. As an example, I’ve already ordered and taken delivery of a power bank and an HM7000-N18TXS.

Given it’s only TT:120, it must also be recent.

I have no reason to say anything positive about SMS, which might explain why I reported them the the ACCC (Australian Competition and Consumer Commission). And soon after the arrangement became known, I was very negative to Simon K about them and suggested that, us being a stubborn lot, we may well avoid doing any business with them if we could avoid it. He didn’t like that much.

I thought I’d try the arrangement with a track order here. The prices are reasonably unlike sets which are marked up horrendously. But that is likely the last time I try given the non-outcome so far. I currently have a UK delivery address in my profile.

[Moccasin]

Sorry @Fishy - I meant that the problem seems focused on TT120, presumably because Hornby will only sell the scale direct and their agreement with SMS doesn’t allow that in Australia.

(Australians & Kiwis stubborn? Never! 😀 I have happy memories of living in Auckland for 3 years and never noticed….)

[Rallymatt]

Thanks for the clarification Fishy. I’d be interested what the ACCC have to say. It could even be iffy under the UK/Aus free trade agreement in respect of open markets.

[ace2507]

Couldn't you buy your TT stuff on ebay and have it shipped to Australia.

[Fishmanoz]

Buy on eBay - you mean second hand from UK purchasers who resell? I don't think so.

[Rallymatt]

And generous as Fishy is…. I can’t see anyone in their right mind paying some of the prices being asked on eBay!

[Peachy]

I’ve bought lots of TT120 stuff from eBay, there’s been plenty people for one reason or the other have changed their minds about the scale.

The problem that the stuff that is more reasonably priced gets snapped up sharpish.

The greedy scalpers asking over the odds prices for the starter sets will just end up having their stuff sit on eBay whilst naturally devalue as more and more stuff enters the 2nd hand pond.

[ukpooky]

To join the club why don't you subscribe via a UK address (Hornby HQ?!) then update it to Australia?

You might miss one magazine but maybe get the rest!

[Fishmanoz]

From what I see, changing your delivery address doesn’t affect existing orders so I don’t think that suggestion will work.

For me, the more important issue is accessing the discount and you can’t do that while locked out of ROW membership.

[Slats]

I'm reading this with considerable interest. I have sent an e-mail to Hornby customer service about how bad the situation is - along with a shopping list. If Simon K was still there I'd be on the phone. Does anyone know who the "right" person is at Hornby to take this seriously and find out how to correct this? When I read "excluding Australia" it's not nice.

I'd like to be a club member, just to be able to read online the announcements and info that is locked off - surely they could provide an electronic/online type membership?!

As a keen Airfix modeler, I have always gone online to the UK to buy models, especially new releases, because by the time that SMS brought them here the ROW had them for years and the markup passing through layers of middle agents is just silly. Recently a few stores in the UK won't supply me anymore.

I am the very person that TT is aimed at - OO too big, and my eyes are too old now for N. I want Hornby TT to be a success.

As far as I'm concerned I will continue to look for every loophole possible to get a supply that I need to buy. I did not sign an exclusive purchasing agreement with SMS - I wonder if I too should report the deal to the ACCC and cite the free trade agreement between UK/ AUS too.

I have just found the link to the ACCC - it looks like that the Hornby / SMS deal falls into the area of exclusive dealing", which can be illegal and therefore I'll plonk in a complaint.

https://www.accc.gov.au/business/competition-and-exemptions/exclusive-dealing

It's ridiculous that Hornby on-line sell to New Zealand (freight wise it's a tad further away) and yet Australia is in the too-hard basket.

[Moccasin]

Maybe going right to the top is the best option.

The TT120 brand manager is unlikely to have the power to change a Group contract but a few emails to Olly Raeburn might demonstrate the anger and give the new Head of Export Sales something to do when he starts!

[Slats]

Maybe going right to the top is the best option.

The TT120 brand manager is unlikely to have the power to change a Group contract but a few emails to Olly Raeburn might demonstrate the anger and give the new Head of Export Sales something to do when he starts!

 

 

Thanks - I got an e-mail back a short time ago from Hornby customer service saying that passed on the issue to the Hornby Marketing Team. But might be time to pass it on to Olly Raeburn too.

[Slats]

Found some UK suppliers over the last couple of days who will happily take my money for Hornby TT and will send it down under. I'm not going to mention who - as until Hornby formally lifts the ban on sales to Australia I don't want these suppliers to be put under pressure. I'm just happy that bits and pieces that I've been wanting for months for, that have been and are available in the UK that SMS won't supply to local retailers, are now heading my way. sunglasseshugging_face

It would be great at some stage for Hornby to invite Australians back into the family via extending club TT membership and ending the SMS monopoly which is neither in Hornby's best interest nor people like myself. unamused

 

[Fishmanoz]

Are such suppliers telling you their agreement with Hornby precludes delivering to Aust? I would find that unlikely so naming them unlikely to be a problem. then Hornby unlikely to see from here anyway.

Easy to tell who they are too - just set up an account with Aust delivery and start placing an order to see if it bounces. alternatively, it will be all of them. Have any told you no?

As for any change to the arrangements - don't hold your breath.

[Slats]

@Fishmanoz

No I haven't raised the issue with the UK suppliers - I'm not going too either. I guess I'm a bit worried that the tentacles of the SMS agreement might reach far. All I'm wanting to do is get on with the Hobby.

I really would like membership access to the various info etc that other's can get.

Just saw a youtube with Simon K a few months back claiming how wonderful SMS are in Australia- and that any problems reach out to SMS who are there to help... (yeah right - talk to the hand). I'm sure you are aware they don't have any comms with the lowly buyer - they only communicate with retailers. Simon K's states that SMS had 11 or so retailers signed up for Hornby TT - so it's really interesting that Hornby felt the need to punt off the management of just 11 retailers to an exclusive rights deal with SMS!!!

I have received 2 e-mails back from Hobby - apologizing for lack of product and delay and stating that their marketing team is looking into it. But like you say - won't hold my breath!

I've had 2 quite candid convos with two of the largest retailers here (I'm sure you know the ones), who openly acknowledge that SMS orders things in batches and they are stuck, unable to supply things that fall outside of the batch stock order. There are many many customers that have rang / e-mailed and are in the same situtaion. And these are customers that they eventually will lose.

[LTSR_NSE]

@Slats - Considering Hornby originally did include Australia in ROW membership & judging by certain reactions/answers given for subsequent removal, they never intended TT:120 to be included in the arrangement with SMS.

(Hornby even appeared surprised when they discovered it was, although they also appeared surprised when Studio Canal took issue over IP infringement, so that should be taken with a dose of salt.)

Considering that the SMS arrangement was already in place before TT:120 existed, shows that it was intended for their existing range(s). Since Hornby are able to sell these to Australia directly at RRP, shows that the arrangement only restricts H from offering price discounts.

(Retailers have never been restricted on where they can deliver to, unless goods are deemed dangerous/illegal, since that would breach countries trade agreements!)

Therefore as soon as the introductory 15% discount runs out (and club membership only offers Hobby points - which isn’t a direct RRP discount) H should be able to offer TT:120 (club membership and models) for sale to Australia.

I have no insider knowledge, I am simply drawing a logical conclusion from what has been said publicly.

[Fishmanoz]

LT, I don't think you have that correct. I believe this particular deal applies to TT:120 only. I can buy anything else directly from Hornby. Have done so recently with HM7000.

I believe Hornby thought they were doing a deal which did not preclude their supplying online to Aust, only for sales in Aust, then discovered they hadn't. Consequently, early adopters like me (Day 2) got membership and orders in before Hornby realised their mistake (read SMS told them to cease and desist), and they have honoured those orders.

I don't think the SMS deal will run out after 12 months, hence not holding my breath.

Slats, yes I've spoken to a couple of retailers and they also have no way around SMS. And SMS appears very unresponsive to them, although SMS is also stuck with what Hornby can supply. The first shipment appears to have been taken up by pre-orders mostly. Nothing like the range of track I received in my January pre-order is available now.

If there is anything you want still available here, buy it now, the prices will be higher for the next shipment, just as they are in the UK.

Yes, I reported SMS/Hornby to the ACCC via their online portal but didn't follow up with the additional info they asked for. If you take yours further, happy to help with any info I have that you are missing. This was back when only sets were available to pre-order here and the markups were horrendous. Still are for sets, much better for individual items.

Simon's view on his deal doesn't match reality from this end. I told him so back when, and also said Aust hobbyists would push back against it. He didn't like that and told me things would improve following his visit in Feb this year, they haven't.

[LTSR_NSE]

@Fishy I don’t dispute what you say & freely admit that I may be wrong. However everything else that you are able to buy directly (OO, HM7000, etc.) is only available at full RRP anyway, so there are no potential discounts to be factored in. Whereas the Hornby website would have to be extremely sophisticated in order to allow TT:120 RRP sales to Australia whilst simultaneously preventing club memberships from being purchased/used.

(As others have stated, unless there is a complete block on all TT:120 delivery to Australia, how else do you prevent someone simply purchasing a membership using a non-Australian address and then changing their address after membership purchase?)

If you are indeed correct, that would appear to suggest that non-Australian retailers delivering to Australia could potentially be affected also - a deeply disturbing prospect. Whereas if it is simply highlighting another limitation/lack of sophistication of this website - that would be less disreputable & simply unforeseen/unintended consequence.

Hopefully either way Hornby will learn never to enter into anticompetitive agreements again!