Prices

[Yelrow]

Being Chinese owned of course, Bachmann, by increasing wages in their factory, means claim for parity in Hornby factory. Hence up go the costs of production. My hunch, is a slimmed down range, as new guy, as already pointed out will not be as close as simon was to model trains. I would like to be able to buy new locos again, so really hope he gets a breakthrough.

[threelink]

Oh my goodness, what a sore point for so many. Rose tinted specs back on: when I were a lad, manufacturers made things in UK factories, sold them to retailers who sold them to Joe Public. Cobblers stuck to their lasts. It was a system dating back to when Noah was in shorts and it worked. Then some genius decide everything could be made cheaper in foreign parts and shipped to the UK, so we no longer needed factories here. Another genius decided that it would be a good idea for manufacturers to cut out the retailer and sell direct to Joe Public. Another one worked out that cheaper, less well made stuff would appeal to a wider market and so sell more. Factories gone, a lot of retailers gone, quality control gone, quality itself gone. A system built on countless generations of skill and experience wiped out in a single generation (mine). The wiser captains of industry cautioned against this lemming rush but were shouted down by the bean counters who had the ear of the politicians who, bless 'em, know nothing about anything. Here we are a generation later and who was right? Of course things like political change, global material shortages, transport cost increases, energy price rises and the like are wholly unforeseeable - to those who can see no further than the end of their nose, or the bottom line of a profit and loss account This is not a broadside at any company in particular and the sorry tale applies not only to toy trains: it applies right across the board and it will get worse.

[threelink]

Hi Bee. Thanks for your kind comment. However I do not claim any skill. I just buy enough bits of rubbish to give me sufficient individual parts to make a whole. I just take things apart and then put the parts together. It's as easy as falling off a log - no skill needed but yes, it is fun.

[Rallymatt]

A very apt and timely post @Threelink. One important consideration, something that frustrates me, is the market (consumers) demand cheapness. And so the race to the bottom ensues. The reality is that ‘we have never had it so good’ almost everything is comparatively cheap compared to past decades, with bewildered choice.

[ColinB]

I like your post threelink it is exactly as I feel. Things do get cheaper for a short while, which they did for Hornby. It is a bit like Outsourcing that works for a couple of years until the Outsourcer hits the same issues you originally did. I think there was also another reason stated when they shipped everything to China, Chinese women had small fingers so could make them easier. It is a British/ US disease primarily because Germany seems less less inclined to the same. The other thing companies forget is if you decide to manufacture abroad you need a huge travel budget and what happens when there is a financial squeeze the travel budget is the first to get cut, so now you have a remote operation primary dependant on IT. Sadly a lot of things only get resolved properly by a physical presence contrary to the views of the IT community, been there, done it. As to the cost of the coaches and looking around Bachmann new coaches are even more expensive, but I am sure Hornby will get there. Most people already have a set of teaks so it is a limited market.

[threelink]

Thanks Rallymatt and CO. It's nice to know I'm not just a grumpy old man railing alone against the world. I fear that until we are educated to understand that it is worth paying a little extra for quality, and that the digital revolution is not the answer to everything, the race to the bottom will continue. It is the skills loss that saddens me more than anything - some years ago I spent a fascinating few hours at Arley station on the SVR chatting with an elderly gent who, in his younger day, was a miner at a nearby pit. He seemed grateful to know that there was someone who could appreciate what he was telling me about the work he did and the skill involved in it - things you just don't find in text books.

[Aussie Fred]

While we are talking about the good olde days, remember when we ordered something, we wrote it down on paper, usually in a book, when our order was acknowledged we recieved in on a piece of paper and stuck it in the book or folder and when we paid for it, we had the receipt on a piece of paper which we put in the book and finally when the item arrived it had a packings slip which went into the book and completed everything. Then a year later, when we wanted to check on something, we went to the book or folder and there it was. Now we have computers, emails and internet and everything is kept in folders on the computer. Great until someone decides to update their computer and loses half those folder into the ether or whatever it is called. That is me and one of those folders lost was the records of all my orders for trains stuff and also what I have on order, so now it is just a matter of waiting a year or two to see what turns up.

[LTSR_NSE]

That’s why anything that is only a digital file needs backing up, so there are at least 2 copies. (If possible stored in separate locations as well). Naturally everyone only discovers this necessity after their first loss, some are fortunate enough to have it occur during childhood & discover a valuable ‘life lesson’.

[threelink]

Don't get me started on the inadequacies of digital systems. When it became apparent to my firm that they were unreliable we went back to keeping hard copies of everything for reasons of security. As for cars, mine is a nightmare: if I am unloading and leave it unlocked, it locks itself after 90 seconds so I have to unlock it again to carry on unloading, it won't let me leave the sidelights on without the engine running so I cannot park on unlit side streets after dark and it insists that I must engage neutral and depress the brake pedal before it will start - great if you happen to stall on a busy roundabout (yes I did and being stationary whilst the drivers of 40 tonne trucks tried to avoid rear ending me was a scary experience). For that reason there is no way I would ever contemplate DCC - I like systems that do what I want them to do, not systems that insist I do what they want me to do and which will, every now and again, have a hissy fit just because they can. I am a very happy Luddite.

[Rallymatt]

That’s interesting on the car Threelink, that’s actually a fail for the UK and EU regulations, a car must be capable of being parked with side/parking lights on key out. Now how did that pass type approval?

Back to model railways, I’d rather pay more for my TT:120 locos for better mechanisms. I don’t want cheap, I want better

[The Doc]

I own a few of these teaks, all bought secondhand, and the livery is very complex, thus justifying a higher price relative to some other models. I'm not saying I would pay £67 for them, however, since I don't think I have bought any coaches brand new (apart from the recent generic 4 wheelers) since a rake of Hornby teak Thompson coaches (probably around 1977!).

Manufacturing these coaches cannot be cheap, with all the additional footboards, roof details, handrails and door handles that need attaching. Hornby probably now regret not opting for the Gresley open coaches, or end vestibule types, that only had two doors on each side.

While they are expensive, I reckon they are actually better valus than the current Railroad teaks at their listed price of £29.49. These date from the 1970s and must be cheap as chips to manufacture. You can pick up rakes of three in good condition off ebay for less than £20.

[threelink]

Hi Rallymatt. The car is 17years old and French, which probably accounts for a lot. Good for you on the TT120 front - is the quality you seek available? I have not looked at TT120 myself: my fingers are not so nimble nor my eyes so sharp as they were and I don't see that situation getting any better but it's interesting to see a new concept launched. I wish Hornby and the other manufacturers every success.

[Yelrow]

Rallymatt, that’s the price problem, of course. You want, and can afford quality, whereas,children, and parents want affordable. Hence Hornby Railroad.

[Moccasin]

Rallymatt, that’s the price problem, of course. You want, and can afford quality, whereas,children, and parents want affordable. Hence Hornby Railroad.

 

 

I don’t think Railroad is really at the right level or has become tarnished/muddled. There’s an entry-level market for models with less detail & easier/cheaper to manufacture which Hornby seem to be going after at the behest of national retailers (Argos, John Lewis et al)

Railroad probably needs ditching/re-positioning in favour of something a bit higher in quality. I hesitate to use design and clever together but something that meets quality expectations/standards set by other manufacturers while not costing the earth.

I’m no branding expert (obviously) but the main Hornby name needs to occupy that middle area, with a cheaper/simpler Railroad for train sets and pocket money additions and Dublo (or other legacy/new brand for top level models where price can be less of a factor and possibly with a defined limited release programme, with a set batch size.

[Moccasin]

Rallymatt, that’s the price problem, of course. You want, and can afford quality, whereas,children, and parents want affordable. Hence Hornby Railroad.

 

 

I don’t think Railroad is really at the right level or has become tarnished/muddled. There’s an entry-level market for models with less detail & easier/cheaper to manufacture which Hornby seem to be going after at the behest of national retailers (Argos, John Lewis et al)

Railroad probably needs ditching/re-positioning in favour of something a bit higher in quality. I hesitate to use design and clever together but something that meets quality expectations/standards set by other manufacturers while not costing the earth.

I’m no branding expert (obviously) but maybe the main Hornby name needs to occupy that middle area, with a cheaper/simpler Railroad for train sets and pocket money additions and Dublo (or other legacy/new brand) for top level models where price can be less of a factor and possibly with a defined limited release programme, with a set batch size.

[Rallymatt]

@Threelink, TT:120 is working out well for me, got me back into the Hobby when OO was a non starter on size. Quality is varied, it terms of the modelling Hornby have absolutely nailed it, there are some mechanical glitches and I have had a few failed locos, Hornby Customer Service has been impeccable. I do wish they had spent $20 more on the gubbins and charge me £30 more for faultless running every time.

@Yelrow, I do appreciate the importance of an entry level product, bombproof mechanicals, robust models that can take some handling and that’s the purpose of Railroad range, old tooling, less detailed but modern decoration and option for detailing. But prices are relative, no hobby is cheap but relative to incomes even the quality end of the market is more affordable than it was 20-30 years ago. As an engineer my mindset is make it better. Things are often ‘too cheap’ walk into many shops and at least half of what is there is valueless tat. (Harrods 95% is valueless tat) Stuff that breaks doesn’t help anyone. If Janet & John get a trainset for Christmas and it doesn’t work out of the box, fails on Boxing Day or before they are back at school, no matter how cheap it was you have a good chance that you have lost them from the Hobby.

In the 1980’s, a major motor manufacturer worked out the true cost to get a potential customer to walk through the showroom door and the various stages until purchase, when the marketing investment could be recouped. It was eye watering. Believe it or not, it had never been calculated before. A strategy was developed to keep customers loyal to the brand by raising quality, it was very successful. It’s cheaper to keep customers than find new ones, and quality is your best chance of achieving that.

sorry gone on a bit… as per normal 😁

[Tony57]

The problem with Railroad is Hornby has muddled it, the principles are sound, an entry level system that is affordable and robust, then the range for the collector / enthusiast with all the bells and whistles which can be added to the level entry system.

Hornby have merged the two together with too much of an overlap between the two brands. Hornby needs to produce more Railroad brand items and less Collector range items as the top end is very crowded market place now.

I hate to say this, if I had youngsters today and they were interested in model railway I would buy them old Hornby Ringfield powered locos to start with, as they are reliable, robust, reasonably detailed, easy to maintain and service which is what parents of youngsters want. As they grow older then consider newer higher spec locos.

[Moccasin]

@tony yes I agree. Railroad Plus just adds to the muddle.

The Playtrains concept seems quite sound but there possibly need to be some more intermediate models to help keep the interest of those who start with Playtrains and bridge the gap.

[taunmarc88]

So many interesting points, of course we all have our own view on pricing dependant on many factors.

In regards to TT as this has occupied much of my spending recently, I think it’s certainly intended as a premium product but the execution especially in conjunction with HM7000 is pretty poor in my personal experience. For this reason although I am still occasionally buying bits, it is still in boxes in the cupboard and not played with. It’s a shame, I feel too deep to back out but reluctant to invest further… luckily for myself production issues have now delayed future releases so I can really have a good think.

I suppose my overall thinking is this, I didn’t mind paying the price at all but I do wish more time and effort had gone into making a more reliable and fun to run product. I’d have paid more to have it work every time (like my thirty year old Flying Scotsman that’s been through hell and back).

[Moccasin]

I can certainly sympathise with your sentiments. My own slowly-growing collection is in a cupboard right now. I held back on an order earlier in the week as I’m just not sure where I’m going with TT. I’m undecided whether to order more before my club membership expires in November.

It’s disappointing that there’ve been repeated, unnecessary problems with the LNER pacifics. Hopefully the LMS locomotives will benefit from lessons learned with the first-generation locomotives. The phase 2 diesels should hopefully be less prone.

The steep price rises and the seemingly-cynical cancellation of the TXS version of the exec liveried HST, even for those who pre-ordered before the price rises elsewhere in the range, left a bad taste. There was another way I’m sure, which would likely have caused less rancour. Modellers seemed to pay for Hornby’s website errors (which continue elsewhere).

All this is through a rather personally-downbeat lens at the moment. I want TT120 to succeed and want to start a layout but am very much an armchair modeller at the moment.

[taunmarc88]

Moccasin I do hope you are right regarding the future products learning from previous mistakes. I’m thinking that may take longer than the next few models however. I’m still baffled by the lack of sound in the smaller locos and that we do not benefit from stay alive in TT. Such features I would pay more for, I believe other companies are filling this gap. Crazy that it’s possible but Hornby did not do it.

Im currently applying the JOMO rule to my TT, I love it but it is causing me more problems and stress than fun at the moment so I’d rather know I have it in the cupboard than make a permanent layout. At the moment I just pull out my DC OO and make a loop every so often if I want some fun. It only costs me if I buy a second hand coach once in a while.

[Yelrow]

Taunmark. Unless things have changed, Hornby dont appear sell 00 locos, with stay alive, either. All my new DCC ones, do not have it. Reading other postings, problems with speakers, may account for, delay of sound locos.

[SteveM6]

Additionally, manufacturing a stay alive small enough and powerful enough to fit in a TT loco would require some very expensive components. Unlikely to be economically viable.

[The son of Triangman]

The big problem with making a "stay alive" for TT is the capacitors needed. You need capacitors high in value, but small enough in size to fit in a TT:120 loco body. As has been said such items are very expensive. It is possible, but you will need a mortgage to buy the end product. The design of a "stay alive" is simple enough, "stay alives" are nothing special, usually just made from a few common electronic components. Whilst most modellers think nothing of spending £200 plus on a loco, when it comes to other kit most modellers have deep pockets and short arms unless it's dirt cheap, cheap, cheap. It wouldn't be commercially viable.

[ColinB]

YouChoos did a very small "stay alive" and it wasn't that expensive. It was also expandable so it was up to you what capacitors you added. I like "stay alive" but it is a pain with DCC as you cannot read anything in programming mode (it is about time someone sorted that). With HM7000 you avoid the programming mode so it is a worthwhile upgrade. I was thinking about this today whilst I was contemplating buying a loco or a sound decoder. Locos are a bit like an investment, well you usually get about half the price back, electronics are a bit more difficult to shift. If you sell them on EBay how do you know someone will say it doesn't work and send back their broken one. I know not everyone is that crooked but it only takes one and it is so difficult to prove that the one you sent out worked perfectly.