Sam-374549 Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 Hi all,Firstly, I'm very much an amateur so apologies for the lack of detail within the request.I bought a Hogwarts Express (2019+) model a few years back which comes out at christmas to run below the xmas tree. The train has been working fine for a few years (other than my wife spraying fake snow onto the train and track which required quite a bit of cleaning work to get it back and running again..).However, recently I noticed that it started to run a little bit sluggishly which I assume was to do with dirt on the track/wheels. After cleaning, I placed the train back onto the track and accidentally flicked the reverse button on the controller before I turned the dial to increase the speed. This caused the red light to go out which I believe indicates a short circuit somewhere. After taking the train off of the track, and unplugging the controller for a few minutes, the red light came on after turning the dial which I presume means that the short is not in the track itself but within the loco. I put the train back onto the track and turned the dial up (this time with the direction pointing the right way) and again the light on the controller immediately turned off. I took the loco apart and cleaned all contacts etc and put it back on the track and am still getting the same issue.Can anyone please advise what might be going on here? I'm conscious that it may be a motor issue that has been initiated by me flicking the directional button but would appreciate any input you can provide.Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Henny Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 What controller is it?The R7229 controller has an interlock to prevent the direction switch being used when the speed knob is 'off zero'.Although, it is recommended practice to not change direction (function of the forward / reverse switch) when the loco is still moving. The odd ocassional misuse of the switch should not automatically damage a motor. If this was the case, then ALL controllers would be expected to have a physical 'interlock' built into the design.The described issue is either the loco or the controller at fault. One really needs a known good alternative loco to test and prove whether the controller is good or not.Realistically, these issues need a multi-meter to perform diagnostic tests. Voltage scale to read output of the controller AND resistance scale to test for 'short circuits' across the loco wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Spare Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 How many hours has the loco run since you bought it? It may be that the motor has reached the end of its life or the gears have worn. Are the loco driving wheels locked solid or can you move them, only fractionally, by hand? Another poster reported a similar failure (of a different loco) and when it was totted up, the loco had run a few hundred hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-374549 Posted December 7, 2023 Author Share Posted December 7, 2023 The controller is R8250. Correct, I didn't switch the direction whilst the train was moving (the switch prevents this from happening), however it did put it into reverse which caused a short shortly after.Thanks for the info, I'll look at getting the above items to investigate further.Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-374549 Posted December 7, 2023 Author Share Posted December 7, 2023 How many hours has the loco run since you bought it? It may be that the motor has reached the end of its life or the gears have worn. Are the loco driving wheels locked solid or can you move them, only fractionally, by hand? Another poster reported a similar failure (of a different loco) and when it was totted up, the loco had run a few hundred hours. It is only on occasionally at Christmas so doubt it will have been running constantly for <25 hours or so! Wheels can be moved by hand too, so I don't believe it's the gears (I would assume an issue here would also not turn the controller light off also) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Henny Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 however it did put it into reverse which caused a short shortly after. I suggest to you that any short you observed was purely coincidental and caused by some other physical factor, as putting a loco motor into reverse should not create a short.Note that correctly engaged gearing should prevent the driven wheels from being turned by hand. If driven wheels can be turned by hand then something mechanical is wrong.If you must use the quoted reply feature, it would be appreciated if you edited the quote to just show the relevant text you are responding to. As I have done in this reply to your quoted reply text.P.S. The R8250 is a basic set controller built to a low price and not the best quality. However that said, the R7229 controller I previously mentioned is the R8250 replacement and is even worse than the R8250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-374549 Posted December 7, 2023 Author Share Posted December 7, 2023 Note that correctly engaged gearing should prevent the driven wheels from being turned by hand. If driven wheels can be turned by hand then something mechanical is wrong. They cannot move freely, but only fractionally. A few mm or so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon-372339 Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 test the loco with a 9v battery across the wheels'I took the loco apart and cleaned all contacts etc'including lubrication?seehttps://support.hornby.com/hc/en-gb/article_attachments/360016259760 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-374549 Posted December 7, 2023 Author Share Posted December 7, 2023 Thanks for the tip. The 9v battery across the wheels doesn't turn them. No, not lubrication - I'll try that. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simmo009 Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 Is it correct to assume the motor is in the locomotive and not the tender? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Spare Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 Yes, both versions have been loco-driven - the first using the Dapol ringfield motor and the current one has a can motor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-Henny Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 You know what they say about "assume".The heaviest of either the loco or tender will be the one with the motor. This is the easiest way to tell where the motor is located.Look also at the connection between the loco and tender. Are there four wires connected via a white plug and socket. If so, then the motor will definitely be in the loco, but with extra track pickups in the tender. The steam locos with these four wires also mean that any DCC Decoder that may be fitted, will go in the tender along with a speaker for sound loco versions.EDIT: G.S posted whilst I was still typing mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Spare Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 Does the headlight work before the controller cuts out?During the servicing, might one of the electrical pick-ups behind the loco driving wheels have been displaced and, the loco having been reversed, the deformed pick-up is now shorting against the chassis block? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simmo009 Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 As these were 'Train Set' products, they may have still been tender drive, although the time frame mitigates against this. Best to check if unsure.Sam, take a trip to your local model railway club. There is usually at least 1 loco doctor there who can take you through diagnosis, as well as service and maintenance to help you going forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-374549 Posted December 7, 2023 Author Share Posted December 7, 2023 I took the loco apart again and can confirm the motor is situated in the loco itself. When I detached the tender from the loco and started to remove any stray hairs from around the wheels etc, I sporadically tested with the 9v battery across the wheels. The loco in question has a light on the front of it and at the beginning, it didn't light up. After adjusting the contacts, the light did then appear to turn on. after putting it back together and connecting the tender, the wheels began to turn. Initially, I tested it in reverse which seemed to work perfectly fine, however when i swapped the battery around to swap the direction, it seemed to go quite a bit slower and was struggling. After about 5 seconds or so it stopped and the connection was lost again (and the light wouldn't turn on). I carried out this process a number of times and came to the same result each time. My initial thoughts is that it must have something to do with the contacts that is preventing current flowing to both the light and the motor, but I don't quite understand why this is being disrupted when the loco changes direction.Would appreciate any insight. I'm starting to think the best course of action would be a visit to the Hornby doctor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon-372339 Posted December 7, 2023 Share Posted December 7, 2023 Service sheet https://support.hornby.com/hc/en-gb/article_attachments/360016355340A stab in the dark : due to the gear type/drive in one direction the wheelset is pushed to the left in the opposite direction the wheelset is pushed to right hence lack of contact/bad connection in one direction.Just for the fun of it: do the battery test for both directions in the dark, any sparks from the contacts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-374549 Posted December 7, 2023 Author Share Posted December 7, 2023 I think you might be on to something, Simon! There definitely seems to be an issue with the contacts. Often when i press the battery against the wheels, nothing happens. I took the chassis bottom off (which the contacts are connected to) and connected the battery straight into the copper pads rather than through the wheels. That seemed to turn the light on again. I've just purchased a new bottom chassis with contacts on so am hoping this will solve the issue. Appreciate the assistance and will update you once I've replaced the part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-374549 Posted December 12, 2023 Author Share Posted December 12, 2023 Just to follow up on this.I purchased some new contacts and fitted them at the weekend. This still didn't fix the issue! One thing that I noticed is that when a put a battery across the wheels without the tender attached, the light always seems to come on, however whenever the tender is attached - nothing seems to happen.I then took the tender apart and it seems to me that very few of the contacts are touching the wheels. In addition, there is a little 8 prong pcb (bottom left side of pic) that is mounted within the tender itself, when this is disconnected, again the light over the wheels works. My initial thoughts were that this meant the contacts on the tender were probably not causing the issue (but I may very well be wrong).Based on that info, does anyone have any other ideas as to where the issue might lie!Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted December 12, 2023 Share Posted December 12, 2023 Couple of things you can check. The most obvious being the tender and loco wires are crossed, check using a meter that loco left wheels are wired to left tender wheels, ditto right wheels. Second thing is lift the socket that 8-pin blanking plug fits into and check for solder tracking between traces or evidence the plug is touching metal due to long pins or not making good contact due to loose fitting pins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog RJ Posted December 12, 2023 Share Posted December 12, 2023 Have the tender wheels been removed and if so, have they all been replaced the correct way round?Edit.Just a thought. The correct orientation of the tender wheels may not matter as they may both be insulated from the axles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted December 12, 2023 Share Posted December 12, 2023 Hello SamOne thing I have found very useful when attempting to fix electrical issues is to draw the schematic.Every component. Every wire. Each part of the circuit. If it includes a circuit card, label each connection. Find the technical data sheet for that card.Often times, when I do so the error itself jumps off of the page and into my lap. You may very well spot the error on your own.Failing that, post your diagram here. The brain trust¹ here will spot it.Bee ¹I am decidedly in the peanut gallery! 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon-372339 Posted December 13, 2023 Share Posted December 13, 2023 Mmm , the service sheet I linked too doesn't show any contacts to the wheels in the tender.The wiring from tender to loco appears to be for DCC chipIf you look at your photo the pickups don't appear to be correctly placed so they dont make contact with the wheels very well. Your photo also shows mirrored pickups but only one side is shown on the schematic.Its also unclear from the schematic what part 12 (loco chassis pickups pcb) actually connects to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-374549 Posted December 14, 2023 Author Share Posted December 14, 2023 Update:I removed the bottom chassis and wheels and connected a 9v battery directly to the pickups on the underside of the main chassis. With the tender connected, the motor turns fine one way, but is very sluggish the other, to a point where it stops and the light on the front no longer lights up. If I give the gold worm gear a nudge, it will then start to work again and light up. This rules out the pickups and wheels being the issue.At this point there is the issue more likely to lie within the gears or the motor itself?Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-374549 Posted December 14, 2023 Author Share Posted December 14, 2023 I managed to hook the battery up to just test the motor itself and this seems to be the issue. Sadly there seems to be no obvious replacement parts (X6627) available online.Thanks for all of your help anyway! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted December 14, 2023 Share Posted December 14, 2023 I managed to hook the battery up to just test the motor itself and this seems to be the issue. Sadly there seems to be no obvious replacement parts (X6627) available online. Try Hornby spares - https://uk.hornby.com/products/motor-assy-4900-refined-x6627?_br_psugg_q=x6627 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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