ColinB Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 6 hours ago, SteveM6 said: It was actually faster than the estimate! Closer to 15 mins. It still failed but that's not relevant at this juncture. Fortunately, I only have to use the app once to load the profile so if it takes longer then so be it, I am not going to buy an Ipad just for that. On my smart device it takes between 20 to 25 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 Yes SteveM6 it looks like you are absolutely right, it is the smart device. I programmed my other HM7000 with my Android pad rather than my phone and yes it runs incredibly slow. The whole HW7000 APP runs really slow, the Z21 app which I normally use runs the same on both platforms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM6 Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 1 hour ago, ColinB said: Yes SteveM6 it looks like you are absolutely right, it is the smart device. I programmed my other HM7000 with my Android pad rather than my phone and yes it runs incredibly slow. The whole HW7000 APP runs really slow, the Z21 app which I normally use runs the same on both platforms. Although I have had my suspicions for some time, it's taken a circuitous route for us to get to that conclusion! As has been said, the process will take as long as takes, and I guess the variance across different devices and operating systems wasn't anticipated. Hornby has published the basic system requirements (memory and system version) and I have been very careful to select devices that meet those recommendations. However, maybe it's time to caveat the system with a warning that load times may vary depending on the Bluetooth capabilities of the device being used? As a non technical person, I guess there are proper terms for the details of this. Rob, at an appropriate time perhaps a conversation with George would be an idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 12 minutes ago, SteveM6 said: Although I have had my suspicions for some time, it's taken a circuitous route for us to get to that conclusion! As has been said, the process will take as long as takes, and I guess the variance across different devices and operating systems wasn't anticipated. Hornby has published the basic system requirements (memory and system version) and I have been very careful to select devices that meet those recommendations. However, maybe it's time to caveat the system with a warning that load times may vary depending on the Bluetooth capabilities of the device being used? As a non technical person, I guess there are proper terms for the details of this. Rob, at an appropriate time perhaps a conversation with George would be an idea? I am no expert on this but I do know in Windows if you use the built in functions rather than writing your own for byte manipulation, they can take an awful long time to do the most trivial of byte operations. So perhaps that is what they did used an Android function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus Posted June 21 Share Posted June 21 (edited) I think you are expecting to much. The microcontroller is rated at 49 Mhz but for that you would need an external oscillator with crystal which I do not see on the pcb. Running on its internal clock at lower speed will mean slow programming data transfer speeds for reliability ( internal clocks are not very accurate), but is not important for sound and motor control etc. it is being used for, they could probably greatly increase the speed of flashing but this would result in a much larger decoder due to extra circuitry and greatly increase the cost. In reality how many of these decoders will be flashed more than a couple of times in their life. Edited June 21 by Daedalus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dBerriff Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 This is why we have these discussions - to reach a conclusion. 👍 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 8 hours ago, Daedalus said: In reality how many of these decoders will be flashed more than a couple of times in their life. Agreed - most will not except to satisfy folks' curiosity. Most of mine have been loaded dozens of times as new profiles emerge, but that is the nature of the testing scenario. 8 hours ago, Daedalus said: 49 Mhz but for that you would need an external oscillator with crystal which I do not see on the pcb 21 pin decoder extract... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Too Tall Posted June 22 Author Share Posted June 22 TBH thats pretty much, the case here, I will use the tablet to load the sounds, set accel decel if required then run them from a controller. I guess the one thig I might like to be usefull, is the tablet to show what the F number is on the sounds so I can print a list to use for controller operation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 8 hours ago, Daedalus said: I think you are expecting to much. The microcontroller is rated at 49 Mhz but for that you would need an external oscillator with crystal which I do not see on the pcb. Running on its internal clock at lower speed will mean slow programming data transfer speeds for reliability ( internal clocks are not very accurate), but is not important for sound and motor control etc. it is being used for, they could probably greatly increase the speed of flashing but this would result in a much larger decoder due to extra circuitry and greatly increase the cost. In reality how many of these decoders will be flashed more than a couple of times in their life. Actually most modern processor use a phase locked loop to multiply the frequency, well the the ones I used in the past do. A lot use a simple clock crystal and then multiply up. Generally inside the processor there are a set of registers to set the required multipliers. As to reflashing the device once, yes that is what I do, so I go away and have a cup of coffee. In my old job a flash time in excess of 5 minutes would always be problematic as it means more chance of errors and that "hot line" you setup will be glowing red with calls. So generally you try to keep the time down to give you an easier life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 4 minutes ago, ColinB said: a flash time in excess of 5 minutes would always be problematic You should try sitting on your drive waiting for Skoda to do an OTA software update. You can wash and polish the car and hoover it out and still have time to have coffee and biscuits before it says there has been a problem try again later. HM7K updates are a breeze in comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 13 minutes ago, 96RAF said: You should try sitting on your drive waiting for Skoda to do an OTA software update. You can wash and polish the car and hoover it out and still have time to have coffee and biscuits before it says there has been a problem try again later. HM7K updates are a breeze in comparison. A Ford Sync used to take an hour and a half, a powertrain unit five to ten minutes. Most of the others less than 5 minutes. Ford came up with a bit of AI that looks for bit patterns that reduced the size of the file by looking for repeated strings of byte patterns and replacing them by a lookup table which reduced the transfer and reprogramming times substantially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 3 hours ago, 96RAF said: Agreed - most will not except to satisfy folks' curiosity. Most of mine have been loaded dozens of times as new profiles emerge, but that is the nature of the testing scenario. 21 pin decoder extract... Mere mortals don't have access to the circuit diagrams. Is it the same with the 18 pin I have? Standard practice in my day was to divide the crystal frequency by 2 to get an equal mark space ratio which suggests it is being clocked at only 12 MHz. It would reduce the need for guess work if such basic info was made available as any propietary interest is surely in the code. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 33 minutes ago, Daedalus said: Mere mortals don't have access to the circuit diagrams. Is it the same with the 18 pin I have? Standard practice in my day was to divide the crystal frequency by 2 to get an equal mark space ratio which suggests it is being clocked at only 12 MHz. It would reduce the need for guess work if such basic info was made available as any propietary interest is surely in the code. I suspect they run it at 48 MHz if that is what the processor is set to operate at, using the phase lock loop to double it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 I only have a 21 pin diagram, but would think they all had common roots. I have never seen schematics for any other make decoders in the public domain, so why should Hornby be any different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 (edited) 1 hour ago, 96RAF said: I only have a 21 pin diagram, but would think they all had common roots. I have never seen schematics for any other make decoders in the public domain, so why should Hornby be any different. I 'm not suggesting the schematics are released but they could say what speed it is being clocked at, as they have not scrubbed the manufacturer's part no. from the microcontroller it can not be that sensitive info. 1 hour ago, ColinB said: I suspect they run it at 48 MHz if that is what the processor is set to operate at, using the phase lock loop to double it. If you look at the basic manufacturers spec available online it uses an Arm M0 clocked @ 49 Mhz and 98 MHz oscillator crystals are readily available. I'm just trying to suggest why seeking WiFi and bluetooth LE problems might not be the best use of time if achieving the fastest possible flashing was not a design goal and they settled on slow but reliable instead and concentrated on the sound features etc. Hornby and/or Bryer could clear this up without giving away their secrets. Edited June 22 by Daedalus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTSR_NSE Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 I’ve obviously missed something… what does this decoder processor clock speed discussion have to do with this thread? (about inconsistent profile loading times) I believe (unless I’m mistaken) that this & other threads have already reached a consensus that on iOS devices (less than approx 5yrs old) loading times are fairly reliable, consistent, & not too long (approx 20-30 mins max - usually within 20mins). Whereas on android devices (even brand new ones), loading times are extremely inconsistent (between different types) & can easily take longer than 30 mins on certain devices. If that is correct (& I’ll happily be corrected if I’m mistaken) - then any part of decoder cannot be a cause, as it is a constant. Whereas phone/tablet Bluetooth chips (or other device specific components) absolutely will be the cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 If it’s the decoders, why do ALL my HM 7000 decoders manage a perfect upload up in 10-12 minutes every time? For ref: iPhone SE 2nd Gen iOS 17.5.1 BT Wi-Fi in next room, other locos always on the layout (no programming track, no locos checked as unavailable) Normal track power from a Dynamis Ultra set a 14.8v Decoders have been bought from different retailers including Hornby direct and at different times. I have had various other locos from other people for little projects and needed to upload different profiles etc. Always upload first time and always 10-12 mins. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 But you have eliminated a lot of variables using DCC. There is no active Bluetooth Mesh for a start. It can only be a 64 Mbit download max and even the cheapest TV can stream easily @ 5 Mbit/sec. Have you ever tried a PC Bios update? Even in slow Bios mode it takes about 15 secs for a 128 Mbit update ( I have never tried it under Windows but presumably it is very much faster.) There are far too many variables to say definitively how long it should take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dBerriff Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 (edited) DCC for power does not stop the use of BLE (and the mesh technology). Am I missing something? Edited June 22 by dBerriff 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTSR_NSE Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 In comparison to @Rallymatt I use the Hornby DC PSU with an iPhone 7 - always have bulletproof loads, smallest profile in 10 mins, largest in 20 mins. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 5 minutes ago, dBerriff said: DCC for power does not stop the mesh. Am I missing something? No it's just that he thought it neccessary to specify his DCC controller so I assumed he was running his other decoders in DCC mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 (edited) 12 minutes ago, LTSR_NSE said: In comparison to @Rallymatt I use the Hornby DC PSU with an iPhone 7 - always have bulletproof loads, smallest profile in 10 mins, largest in 20 mins. But if my maths is correct assuming a max 64Mbit profile that is ~54 Kbit/s dialup modem speed. Edited June 22 by Daedalus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 24 minutes ago, Daedalus said: No it's just that he thought it neccessary to specify his DCC controller so I assumed he was running his other decoders in DCC mode. You can only load profiles in app bluetooth mode, regardless of power supply type. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daedalus Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 (edited) 8 minutes ago, 96RAF said: You can only load profiles in app bluetooth mode, regardless of power supply type. But presumably you can run your other locos in DCC while you are doing it if that is how you normally run. Therefore no Mesh. Edited June 22 by Daedalus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted June 22 Share Posted June 22 1 hour ago, Daedalus said: But presumably you can run your other locos in DCC while you are doing it if that is how you normally run. Therefore no Mesh. Yes you can but logic says you concentrate on the profiling matter in hand to minimise risk. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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