Rallymatt Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 This is something that has cropped up again and probably worth discussing specifically rather than on individual threads. As I understand the forum rules it’s not permitted for a content creator to directly link to their own content if it is ‘for commercial gain’ so that covers sponsorship, product placement and YouTube earnings (or similar on other platforms) Simlarly for people trying sell items. A permitted back door can be opened if a third party posts the link on content/advertisment (?) Ultimately the content creator/seller benefits directly through indirect promotion. I am not sure what the answer is as it would be a shame to lose access to content but on the other hand, a back door makes a joke of the rules. I make some content I put up on YouTube and link via the forum but I took the view wherever the ‘channel’ went, I’m not running a business. I buy my own models, I hate adverts and in this space, sponsored content makes me uneasy; so I wouldn’t monetise High Fell even if it qualified. I just enjoy the hobby and am happy to share freely. TBH the commercial aspect is so trivial it’s not worth the grief! Others have different and perfectly legitimate objectives and motivations. It’s how forum members see the interaction between commercial content and the forum developing that is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 As I said in the other thread advice will be sought from Hornby Towers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTSR_NSE Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 3 hours ago, Rallymatt said: it would be a shame to lose access to content but on the other hand, a back door makes a joke of the rules. Personally I don’t see the ‘third-parties posting links’ as a back-door or making a mockery of rules… it helps to ensure that only content which others actually believe to be useful/beneficial to this community gets linked to. (Hypothetically) If purely financially motivated content creators were allowed to post all of their own monetised content this forum could be awash with clickbait spam. Fortunately with the rules as they are, only genuine hobby participants are being impacted/inconvenienced by not being allowed to post links to sponsored content - and the community is permitted to resolve that issue. This situation is no different to discussion of non-Hornby brands. No person or company is allowed to directly advertise/promote/sell products. However if genuine satisfied customers describe products, explaining the functions & features - I’m quite sure that will result in some indirect sales! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 I see your point @LTSR_NSE, others are almost policing the content links that are posted. 👍 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 I agree with @LTSR_NSE We discuss Lendons, Peter's Spares & etc. We discuss all manner of commercial entities. They are all clearly profit motivated, all wish to stay in business. If an Enthusiast wishes to discuss how their automated level crossing gates are coming along [for example], and they are a known and respected member of the community, I see zero violation. I also have observed and reported crystal clear violation of this rule. For example, some person decided to advertise his language classes(?) in the middle of the UK night. Reported and Sorted. When it was observed that @81F has a store, we discussed it. 81F did not promote it. Specifically, I did as did others. That is not a backdoor, full stop. That is the community, talking about a vendor and a respected member of our community. If Hornby towers decides that any commercial competition may not be mentioned under any circumstances, then @Going Sparewill have little to do, as he cannot refer them to the appropriate spares. That goes for any references to spares or tools on eBay as well. Bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Model Railway Guy Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 Seeing as this topic has spawned out of my own content being deleted I debated about replying to this for fear of stoking the fire further… From my point of view the guidelines indicate you can’t use the forum to sell things and profit from it, which is fair enough. There have been a few videos where I am directly selling something that I chose not to post here for this very reason. With sponsorship the transaction is already done and I don’t benefit financially by posting the completed video. While I understand the apprehension, I don’t think anyone would look at my videos and I think I’m only posting here to make a profit… if I was I certainly wouldn’t have gone into making model railway content 😅 What does seem silly to me is that, while I don’t profit from views of sponsored content, content with YouTube ads which I (and other creators who have posted here) DO profit from directly is allowed to remain. That seems a bit backward. The only thing I’ll say about the back door method is what stops me using a different username/profile picture and pretending to post as someone else? I’m not going to do that as it would be “sneaky” in my eyes - but by trying to be upfront and honest I have essentially shot myself in the foot. In any case, it does seem the guidelines need updating to specify that sponsored content isn’t allowed, as that doesn’t seem clear at the moment. I do also think the situation could have been handled better. A quick private message asking me to remove the videos of my own accord would have been appreciated, rather than what found when I logged in this morning. Obviously I'm biased but sadly it feels like the current policy pushes away content creators who are actively enthusiastic about the hobby. I know I probably won’t bother to check in here anymore… that’s not me flouncing off in a huff but just being realistic about the situation. I only have limited time and I’ll most likely spend it engaging with people where I feel like I can provide a benefit instead of tip-toeing around. Additionally it also perpetuates the myth that all content creators are ego driven narcissists who are only here to push their content down your throat and sell you some tat… in the overwhelming majority of cases that just simply isn’t true, especially in this hobby. Most of us are actually quite nice 😉 While I’m sure it isn’t the case, it does feel like I’m being penalised here for being mildly successful… or for aligning myself with something hobby related rather than whatever YouTube/Google want to advertise. Anyway... thanks for coming to my Ted Talk 😅 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 27 minutes ago, That Model Railway Guy said: That's not me flouncing off in a huff Don't go off in a huff. Go in a minute and a huff - Groucho Marx Actually, please don't. I do think this issue will be sorted in a reasonable manner. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted June 24 Author Share Posted June 24 (edited) @What About The BeeThat was my intention by bringing the topic here rather than in an update thread. And I like the Groucho reference 🤣 Edited June 24 by Rallymatt Spilling missteak 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTSR_NSE Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 1 hour ago, That Model Railway Guy said: I do also think the situation could have been handled better. A quick private message asking me to remove the videos of my own accord would have been appreciated, rather than what found when I logged in this morning. Sadly a limitation of this forum is that posters can only edit posts for up to 60mins from initial submission, after which they are locked & only editable by moderators. Whilst I obviously cannot comment on any communication you did/didn’t receive from the Mods - there is no technical means to enable you to remove the videos yourself, if the timer has expired. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Model Railway Guy Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 That’s certainly interesting to know. But even so, a quick courtesy message to say: “Hey we’re not sure where the rules stand on this type of content. We’re going to remove it for the moment until we have more clarity” would have been preferable to a public post chastising me. If anything it would have given me the chance to get in touch with my contacts at Hornby and to rectify any problems I was causing. Instead, action was taken before all the facts were known. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 https://community.hornbyhobbies.com/forums/topic/36000-smaller-power-bank/?do=findComment&comment=387374 Jenny Kirk's videos are commercially sponsored. Obviously so. Clearly so. It is so stated within the video. Additionally, Jenny does product placement. This video is one, a tiny keep alive. Obviously so. Clearly so. She also has merch, which is shamelessly promoted within the video. Obviously so. Clearly so. So any reference to a Jenny video contains commercial content. If @That Model Railway Guyviolated terms of service by referencing his video, than so does any reference to Jennifer Kirk. Full stop. ÷÷÷÷÷ Its always to be a judgement call. If the moderators think it self promotion, it will be removed. If they do not think so, it stays. Its tough being a moderator. A decision has to be made. Nobody is perfect. Sometimes there are mistakes. You usually cannot get 100% agreement in marginal cases. It's easy when the post advertises language classes. Removed. Its easy when JJ asks about a voltmeter. It stays. Gray zone cases are not so easy. Do the moderators delete my post when it references SOT's motorized level crossing gates, which he has clearly stated will be a commercial product? I should hope not. I want one. Judgement call. Bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTSR_NSE Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 @What About The Bee - Jenny’s video was posted by a forum account that isn’t called Jenny Kirk. There is currently no restriction on 3rd party posting of such content. The only ‘rule’ that @That Model Railway Guy can have fallen foul of is self-promotion for financial gain (which isn’t exactly clear if it contains monetised content) - hence Mods have requested clarification from rule makers. @That Model Railway Guy has made an excellent point about anonymous forum accounts - but not sure anyone will want to investigate that particular can of worms. 100% agree with moderator judgement call - what a delightful thankless task! 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peachy Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 As a “sponsored” TouTuber (that still makes me smile as my income from that sponsorship just about covers the postage for all the giveaways of TT120 products I’ve reviewed this past year) I totally understand and accept this forums rules. The only thing that niggles me is when other YouTubers who don’t sign up to Adsense or have sought sponsorship from retailers/manufactures feel like that they need to take some holier than thou stance on us degenerate capitalists… I think @GMD would say “let he who is without sin, cast the first stone” 🫣😆 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted June 24 Share Posted June 24 Point accepted without rancor @LTSR_NSE I recognize the distinction, of course. I am suggesting that the "rule" is so narrow and so readily avoided, that it is functionally useless. The movie "Miracle on 34th Street" shows the benefit of recommending a competing product. Instead of losing that one individual sale, the good will generated by the recommendation comes back 10 fold. Bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Fred Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 8 hours ago, What About The Bee said: We discuss Lendons, Peter's Spares & etc. We discuss all manner of commercial entities. They are all clearly profit motivated, all wish to stay in business. If an Enthusiast wishes to discuss how their automated level crossing gates are coming along [for example], and they are a known and respected member of the community, I see zero violation. When it was observed that @81F has a store, we discussed it. 81F did not promote it. If Hornby towers decides that any commercial competition may not be mentioned under any circumstances, then @Going Sparewill have little to do, as he cannot refer them to the appropriate spares. That goes for any references to spares or tools on eBay as well. Bee Not being aware of the original discretion, I notice that those you have quoted do not have their business name as their moniker on this site. Perhaps that may be the problem here. I am sure if Jennie Kirk joined this forum she wouldn't use her business name, just like Peachy and those you have mentioned. It all boils down to doing the "right thing". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 @Aussie FredApparently, I am misunderstood. It was not my intention to say "we cannot have [Lendon's .... etc]" Rather, it was my intention to promote the idea that the rule is a bit strict. The fig leaf of another correspondent informing us about [Peachy, That Model Railroad Guy, 81F.....etc] is just that, a fig leaf. It works around the rule, mooting it. The rule is honored in the breach. Why would I not want to see what other correspondents have to say. They have produced videos including competitors products. If not mistaken Fred, even you have shown us some interesting stuff. Are the products in your videos exclusively Hornby? If that isn't showcasing a competitor's product, I don't know what is. Product placement, like a can of Coca Cola in a movie. Again, this isn't a knock on you, its three hearty cheers. Crack on Fred. I do understand shamelessly promoting a product. I would not want to see Accurascale on these boards, like they are on other message boards, flogging their product. Bachmann? No. Cav-Alex? No. But if Jenny wanted to have an account here, why not? The ability to have a conversation with a youTube creator, here, seems quite reasonable. Even if it is their production account. Just as now, speaking with you. Bee 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Fred Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 Bee, no intention of missunderstanding. I have NO problem with the above mentioned passing on their wealth of knowledge and experiences, especially to a "plugger" like me. I often follow a link of hint thereof on something I have a problem with or may have a problem with, or just fun to look at, actually I have over 150 "links" to different sites, Utubes and shops stored in my computer, many of which I may never refer to, but with my persoanl deteriating memmory bank, I may need them so they are there. From Dangerous Dave, to Charlie, to the weird guy who shows how to put together cardboard building, to many American sites for hints on my controller, although I have transferred over to the Elite now. So far as my conributions, I have only just managed to put up photos, and am way off Utubing or even Videos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 To close out this discussion Hornby has stated that any and all (model railway associated) videos may be posted, whether they are sponsored or not, but they should be posted to provoke discussion or answer a question. Blatant commercial advertising will not be allowed, this to stop anyone using the forum as a shop page. They would prefer such videos to be posted in the Gallery in an Album for each collection, e.g. Peachy, The MRG, etc with a ref to link in post. The guidelines will be have been clarified (#9). 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Fred Posted June 25 Share Posted June 25 I had to agree to those guidlines when I just logged in - no problems to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted June 26 Share Posted June 26 @Official Hornby Hobbies Thank you for making these forums a better place. Your recent decision to relax the rules around YouTube creators will bring more enthusiasts in, happy to participate within the community. Well Done! Bee 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted June 26 Author Share Posted June 26 It’s great to see that the final result was Hornby taking a pragmatic view on the issue and acknowledging the existence of a back door ultimately resulted in the same outcome so a more open policy was the right one, with some mild tweaks. I think this event does show the value of discussion in the right place. Virtually everyone made good points in a calm and rational manner. I’d like to think that was taken on board by Hornby 😁 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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