What About The Bee Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 7 minutes ago, ColinB said: Really, well it takes all sorts. Spot on Colin. What appeals to someone else may not appeal to you. If a catalog collector is sitting on the fence about a purchase, perhaps the inducement of a "free" catalog appeals to that person to stop sitting on his wallet. The value of that catalog to me, in the digital age, is zero. The value to the collector? That's another story. My personal view is that Hornby is attempting to generate sales, as they should. Does a price rise induce a buyer? No. But if it is a piece of kit I want, then it will not totally deter me. Then again, I do not need every bauble ever designed Bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted August 10 Author Share Posted August 10 4 minutes ago, What About The Bee said: Spot on Colin. What appeals to someone else may not appeal to you. If a catalog collector is sitting on the fence about a purchase, perhaps the inducement of a "free" catalog appeals to that person to stop sitting on his wallet. The value of that catalog to me, in the digital age, is zero. The value to the collector? That's another story. My personal view is that Hornby is attempting to generate sales, as they should. Does a price rise induce a buyer? No. But if it is a piece of kit I want, then it will not totally deter me. Then again, I do not need every bauble ever designed Bee Road and Rails the sound decoder suppliers in the UK are doing a promotion this weekend, buy a HM7000 and get a free bass speaker worth £10. Now you are going to say but the HM7000 comes with a speaker, but the speaker you get free, fits and sounds better. That is the sort of deal that attracts me and I am sure a lot many others. An out of date catalogue has very little appeal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted August 10 Author Share Posted August 10 (edited) It would be very interesting to know how many people took them up on their offer. Edited August 10 by ColinB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 (edited) 1 hour ago, ColinB said: ... That is the sort of deal that attracts me and I am sure a lot many others. ... Different strokes for different folks. What appeals to me may not appeal to you and visa versa. There is also a current promotion that is really a raffle. Buy £100 and be entered into a 100,000 point contest. The maths tell me that 100,000 points is worth £1000. But only if I win. Is that an inducement. To some, yes. I think you and I are on the same page. I am induced to buy when I see a product I want AND it has a price that I personally think appropriate. Repeat, what I think appropriate. Not what the carpet boy thinks appropriate. To get back to the original thread, it is the price rise we are discussing. If I see value for a product I want, I will buy it. If I don't, I won't. Bee Edited August 10 by What About The Bee 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTSR_NSE Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 3 hours ago, AceTrain said: poor 8 year old Johnny next door won't be getting his Corgi Ford Capri to brumm brumm on the carpet Why would Johnny be interested in such an ancient vehicle that his grandparents might have driven? All my toy cars were of models that I could actually see on the road not ones from 4-5 decades previous! 😳 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted August 10 Author Share Posted August 10 36 minutes ago, LTSR_NSE said: Why would Johnny be interested in such an ancient vehicle that his grandparents might have driven? All my toy cars were of models that I could actually see on the road not ones from 4-5 decades previous! 😳 Ford have just released it as an electric car. Probably nothing like the old one (it wouldn't pass modern crash criteria) but it is a Capri. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ModelerXYZ Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 The skyrocketing prices have already priced a lot of people out of the market. Fortunately I already have a large collection and don't need any more. If I did I wouldn't be able to afford them so I would have to do without. XYZ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted August 10 Author Share Posted August 10 (edited) 13 minutes ago, ModelerXYZ said: The skyrocketing prices have already priced a lot of people out of the market. Fortunately I already have a large collection and don't need any more. If I did I wouldn't be able to afford them so I would have to do without. XYZ I was looking up the West Country Braunton, its RRP is £266.49. It has got to be at least a 30 year old model with minor tweaks. If they increase its price by 10% that would make it nearly £300. I preordered that loco because I thought they must have improved it (I have many of the old ones) and was horrified to find it wasn't much different especially as I have upgraded all the old ones to decoder in the tender. I only paid £220 for it as it was preordered but still felt it wasn't worth that. There will always people that will buy them but are there enough? Of course there is a silver lining for some people on this site who have this obsession with Sam running his locos on a carpet, he has an upper limit of £200 for a loco, so I doubt he will be doing many Hornby reviews. Edited August 10 by ColinB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted August 10 Share Posted August 10 14 minutes ago, ColinB said: ...Sam...has an upper limit of £200 for a loco, so I doubt he will be doing many Hornby reviews. Or most any other manufacturer 🤣 Tis a pity the man is so impoverished! One benefit to specialing on a particular railway is that there is no compulsion to buy every bauble under the sun. As tempting as Flying Scotsman SS is, I can resist. Its not LMR. Put SS in Rocket, and I will incur the wrath of the Admiral. Bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTSR_NSE Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 (edited) 2 hours ago, ColinB said: Ford have just released it as an electric car. Probably nothing like the old one (it wouldn't pass modern crash criteria) but it is a Capri. Thanks for the explanation Colin. 👍 Sigh… a Capri stuffed into a sleeping bag and then wrapped in bubble wrap. I realise that modern occupant & pedestrian safety requires smoothed, flattened surfaces - but why then use a name that harks back to one of the most sleek cars Ford ever produced? 🤷♂️ (It simply emphasises how almost shapeless modern cars have become.) 🤦♂️ Apologies for going so far off topic I’m not even sure where I am! Edited August 11 by LTSR_NSE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Fred Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 Probably still in South Essex? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Fred Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 Speaking on Corgi, On the back of the packing slip for the last order I got from Hornby was an add for a Jaguar e-type, along with a corgi catalogue - what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted August 11 Author Share Posted August 11 6 hours ago, Aussie Fred said: Probably still in South Essex? Actually when I joined Ford in 1980 I was given a map of all the locations in Essex, there were so many. Now there are two, Dunton (the R and D centre) and Dagenham (diesel engine plant). I only found out about the Capri when a guy I worked with, mentioned it. It starts at £48000 so I don't think I will be buying one. The old 2.8 in good condition goes for about £10,000 but they are really nice if you get a good one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aussie Fred Posted August 11 Share Posted August 11 Still of topic but my son-in-laws family live in Chelsford,,Noake Ave and that is where I had my last delivery if odds and sods from Hornby delivered to for him to bring back, very cheap postage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted August 12 Share Posted August 12 Back to pricing. Who honestly didn’t think there would be some price increased in toys and modelling products? Everything else is going up, staff quite rightly expect to be paid a decent wage/salary for their work. A lot of the people within the model industry are highly skilled, from designers in UK to model makers in the factories. Raw material costs are fairly negligible, its staff, machinery, energy and transport that make up the bulk of an individual item’s cost. You can’t compare Accurascale’s business model with Hornby. Accurascale is classified as a ‘Micro enterprise’ it is only required to submit the most basic returns, same as a mobile hairdresser. As an entity they are actually smaller than Hornby’s TT:120 range! Meanwhile Hornby Hobbies is a PLC and that means significant accounting costs and associated employment obligations. Bachmann whilst listed as a PLC, are not subject to full costs as their poorly parent company hold all the IP and tooling (and associated costs) but they have just launched their new 08 deluxe model at £350! Price rise built in. You can argue which is the best business model for models but I would suggest if Accurascale tried to grow significantly it would feel the pinch hard and retail prices would shoot up. Something to consider is, Hornby honour their pre order prices. So despite cost increases that are the reason for general price rises, they take that on the chin, but of course some of that is actually loaded into the %age price rises. There is no such thing as a free lunch. Companies will always look to try and concentrate on a %age margin. The ones your friendly supermarkets work on are eye watering! On the ‘new Ford Capri’ what were they thinking!!!! Should have called it Galaxy and saved Capri for at least a coupe! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTSR_NSE Posted August 12 Share Posted August 12 17 minutes ago, Rallymatt said: There is no such thing as a free lunch. Companies will always look to try and concentrate on a %age margin. The ones your friendly supermarkets work on are eye watering! And the prices they pay farmers, suppliers, etc. are a swift kick in the… make them seem far less friendly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted August 12 Author Share Posted August 12 So by your business model a Lotus should cost considerably less than a Ford Fiesta (if they still made them). There is the other issue that a lot of their products are not selling at the old price. Either way it doesn't matter, fortunately we are not forced to buy their products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTSR_NSE Posted August 12 Share Posted August 12 (edited) The only model railways products today that might be manufactured on a scale that could be considered mass produced (& therefore compared to the Fiesta) are track & ballast. Therefore a better comparison for items of rolling stock (only in terms of quantities Vs company size) would be Lotus & Ferrari. Oddly enough that comparison does make @Rallymatt’s point regarding prices! Edit: completely agree, nobody is forced to purchase models & (population density wise) few people are actually forced to purchase cars! Edited August 12 by LTSR_NSE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted August 12 Share Posted August 12 No Colin. Small Entity is an accounting position meaning a company is except from having to produce very expensive audited accounts and be liable for much more expensive business costs. Lotus are considered a Large business for accounting purposes, exactly the same as FMC and Hornby Hobbies as a PLC. You are also confusing cost to develop and manufacture v volume and amortisation. Which ultimately dictates the RRP and margins. In the model railway world the cost of the raw materials and components is a very tiny cost of the finished product as I already said and pointed out where the big costs are. At that point a bigger company employing more people has greater obligations and overheads. A company like Accurascale can currently run on slimmer margins but if they grew significantly then that wouldn’t be an option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted August 12 Author Share Posted August 12 3 minutes ago, Rallymatt said: No Colin. Small Entity is an accounting position meaning a company is except from having to produce very expensive audited accounts and be liable for much more expensive business costs. Lotus are considered a Large business for accounting purposes, exactly the same as FMC and Hornby Hobbies as a PLC. You are also confusing cost to develop and manufacture v volume and amortisation. Which ultimately dictates the RRP and margins. In the model railway world the cost of the raw materials and components is a very tiny cost of the finished product as I already said and pointed out where the big costs are. At that point a bigger company employing more people has greater obligations and overheads. A company like Accurascale can currently run on slimmer margins but if they grew significantly then that wouldn’t be an option. It is not so simple as that, Hornby designs a range of products so it can shift designers between products so there is less idle time, a small company cannot do that. Then you have the fact that Hornby has been designing products for years so it has the advantage of existing designs it can modify. It also has a knowledge base of where to get things, again a small company will have to learn that. Actually you seem to be homing in on Accurascale aren't you forgetting Dapol, manufactures certain models in the UK and China that also undercut Hornby. I have worked for a very small company and two very large ones, so I have seen it from both sides. At the end of the day forget the emotions, if your product is too expensive it doesn't sell, so you die. We have seen some extremely good examples in the last few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM6 Posted August 12 Share Posted August 12 It was always said that only two things in life are certain - death and taxes. Maybe we should add a third, 'inflation driven price rises'? Perhaps this thread could be bookmarked for September 2025 to save the usual contributors the trouble of typing it all again (like they did last year, and the year before - you get my drift.) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted August 12 Author Share Posted August 12 8 minutes ago, SteveM6 said: It was always said that only two things in life are certain - death and taxes. Maybe we should add a third, 'inflation driven price rises'? Perhaps this thread could be bookmarked for September 2025 to save the usual contributors the trouble of typing it all again (like they did last year, and the year before - you get my drift.) No, January 2025, I suspect this price rise will not be enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted August 12 Share Posted August 12 (edited) @ColinB, I reference Accurascale because it had already been mentioned by you, it’s just a reference point. I have owned and run businesses of different sizes and depending on the nature of the business there are advantages and disadvantages of size. In a small industry like model railways there will be an opportunities for small companies to run on very tight margins that are simply unworkable for a PLC. I think the whole industry is in for a price wake up and prices will go up across the board, it’s inevitable because they are all being subjected to the same inflationary pressures as all other business. On the issue of prices being too high and products not selling. That’s not actually always the case. There have been many cases in successful businesses where price increases actually led to growth, it’s particularly effective in specialist markets, I have implemented and experienced it myself. It can be very useful for creating market separation when you want to cultivate different customer bases for different product ranges. So the notion that price rises kill demand absolutely does not stand up to scrutiny in all scenarios. Edited August 12 by Rallymatt 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTSR_NSE Posted August 12 Share Posted August 12 If Hornby were able to improve QA/QC levels to those that their name was built upon (and charge the necessary prices accordingly) at least for their premium models like Dublo & Steamy locos - I can see that having a positive effect. After all, just as the price conscious forgive limits/compromises for the right price - so collectors & those with disposable income will pay a premium for excellent quality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
What About The Bee Posted August 12 Share Posted August 12 43 minutes ago, LTSR_NSE said: ... as the price conscious forgive limits/compromises for the right price - so collectors & those with disposable income will pay a premium for excellent quality... Which is why discussions of price invariably are colored by the perception of value to an individual and their station in life. It is clear that, for many individuals, the prices are too high to fit within their budget. For others, the quality is more important. Perception. 2 hours ago, ColinB said: ...I suspect this price rise will not be enough... Is Hornby profitable? If not, then they must adjust prices to account for this. Hornby is not a charitable institution. It is a profit motivated business. If a price rise inhibits you from purchasing, you have my sympathies, but the world of Hornby does not exist to serve you personally, nor me for that matter. 2 hours ago, SteveM6 said: ...inflation driven price rises... Absolutely. Inflation is a fact of life. And by the way, that will not stop me from typing my little heart out. See you in Sept, 2025. 😁 Bee Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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