Ray-376212 Posted August 17 Share Posted August 17 Hello wonder if anyone can help me out here please? I have a 3 oval layout with internal sidings on a 6 x 4 foot baseboard. At the moment i have not wired the layout and am just using the hornby turnout clips on the points. I started with The Easterner set and am using the power track from that set. As i now have 4 locomotives i purchased a Hornby R7337 15v 4A mains transformer to supply the power. All seemed ok until a week ago i noticed the 3 locos that were running suddenly all slowed down and i could smell burning! I noticed one of the turnout clips was glowing orange and actually melting the plastic sleeper and then all the locos stopped. I replaced the turnout clip with a new one and all seemed okay until today when exactly the same thing happened with the replacement clip! This has got me worried about when i eventually use drop wires that i may have a big problem! Whilst typing this i have just realised that this has only started happening since i purchased the "Dutchess of Atholl" but as my "Edward Elgar" is back at Hornby repairs at the moment i can't run 3 locos at the moment. I realise that turnout clips are not ideal and i will eventually wire the layout directly when i have enough time. Any advice is greatly appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustyjt Posted August 17 Share Posted August 17 Is this on DC or DCC. If DC and you have these points in a crossover setup, you may be causing a short and therefore heat between two circuits using clips. As the clip is the lightest conductor it is failing first. Surprised some other protection device in the controller isn't cutting in though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rog RJ Posted August 17 Share Posted August 17 Stop using clips and add more power feeds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray-376212 Posted August 17 Author Share Posted August 17 Sorry i should of said it's DCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac202 Posted August 17 Share Posted August 17 Sounds like you have too much load on one of the clips, probably supplying power to the whole of the inner 2 loops. Get a Power Connecting clip to extend the power from your main power rail to one of the inner loops. TT8027 for DC or TT8028 for DCC. Only a few ££s and will see you through until you can wire your layout. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntpntpntp Posted August 17 Share Posted August 17 (edited) I'm not a fan of the power clips. I've encountered them on N gauge points by Minitrix and Fleischmann. They're ok for powering a siding but not really good enough to handle a lot of current as may be flowing on a DCC layout. There've been other threads on here mentioning power clips getting hot. Fit power feed droppers regularly around the layout to spread the load and ensure all the track is live, and attach them to a bus back to the DCC system. Edited August 17 by ntpntpntp 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted August 17 Share Posted August 17 The clips are designed to pass power to a siding or two or loop to loop to run a single loco. They are not to be used to carry power for many locos across a whole layout from a single power supply entry. They are after all just bent wire staples, not jumper cables. The forum covered this subject years ago when melting points were first reported. As Rog says install a proper power bus system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mac202 Posted August 17 Share Posted August 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray-376212 Posted August 17 Author Share Posted August 17 1 hour ago, 96RAF said: As Rog says install a proper power bus system Thanks for the advice, as i said i will eventually get round to wiring the layout properly, what i was concerned about was the reason the power clip melted! Not everyone does it right first time and i realise i have made an error using clips, but i ain't a young man anymore anymore so soldering wires and getting under a layout (because track is fixed now and i thought the clips would work because Hornby don't state that the clips are not suitable really for long term use) is going to be a challenge! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted August 17 Share Posted August 17 1 hour ago, Ray-376212 said: Thanks for the advice, as i said i will eventually get round to wiring the layout properly, what i was concerned about was the reason the power clip melted! Not everyone does it right first time and i realise i have made an error using clips, but i ain't a young man anymore anymore so soldering wires and getting under a layout (because track is fixed now and i thought the clips would work because Hornby don't state that the clips are not suitable really for long term use) is going to be a challenge! I am 80. Age is not a restriction to wiring. My layout uses a full power bus with the hard bits all topside. I solder droppers to the rails and feed them under the boards and back up to distribution boards (pictured). It still makes your back ache bending over to make the connections. I use the same methodology for my accessory decoders. Wire point motors, feed the wires under the board and back up to the acc decoders mounted top-side. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rallymatt Posted August 17 Share Posted August 17 It might be prudent to feed back to Hornby Towers that the limitations should be made very clear on the website and product packaging, currently they are not. Moving forwards, soldered dropper wires are a much more robust solution and it’s well worth lifting existing track to add these for long term reliability. If you used PVA to bond ballast/track a soak in warm water will loosen it off and lifting is very easy with no damage to track. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grenkin Posted August 18 Share Posted August 18 Btw after I've done dropper wires, is it ok to keep clips? (Installed before) I guess it doesn't make sense, but does it matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray-376212 Posted August 18 Author Share Posted August 18 14 hours ago, 96RAF said: I am 80. Age is not a restriction to wiring I take your point. I'm going to follow Rallymatts suggestion (and your word's of encouragement, good idea to mount things top side, think i will do same!) and look into fitting drop wires permanently before i operate the layout again. It just seemed strange that the clip failed in the same position twice, on my inner loop when the power intake is on the outer loop and i was worried i may have a problem which will escalate when i fully wire the layout. Anyway many thanks to all for taking the time to respond and i'm off to watch some wiring videos to work out how many pieces of track will need to be soldered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntpntpntp Posted August 18 Share Posted August 18 22 minutes ago, Grenkin said: Btw after I've done dropper wires, is it ok to keep clips? (Installed before) I guess it doesn't make sense, but does it matter? You could but they will be redundant if you've wired correctly to feed all parts of the track for DCC. They'll still carry part of the load. I'd remove them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntpntpntp Posted August 18 Share Posted August 18 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Ray-376212 said: Good idea to mount things top side, think i will do same!) and look into fitting drop wires permanently before i operate the layout again. It just seemed strange that the clip failed in the same position twice, on my inner loop when the power intake is on the outer loop and i was worried i may have a problem which will escalate when i fully wire the layout. A bad contact where the clip touches the rail can cause heating due to the higher resistance. Without seeing your track plan annotated with feeds and isolating gaps we can't comment on likely reasons why there's a high current flow through that location in particular. It might be a good idea to post your track plan on here if you need advice on wiring (especially where you definitely need feeds and isolation). You don't need to add dropper feeds to every piece of track as some folk seem to do, but the more feeds you have the less reliance there is on the rail joints being clean and tight. I would always recommend you build your layout in manageable sections which can be removed and tilted to work on the wiring. Even layouts intended for permanent setup in a room. Much more comfortable, and at some point in the future you WILL need to dismantle and move it 🙂 Edited August 18 by ntpntpntp 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted August 18 Share Posted August 18 23 minutes ago, ntpntpntp said: and at some point in the future you WILL need to dismantle and move it Been there recently, done that and whilst my normally very static qty 2 x 12 ft x 3 ft sections are accessible on edge I will take the opportunity of doing some rewiring, before re-erecting them. I have to swap my control position from one side to the other so the bus will need reworking to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby11 Posted August 18 Share Posted August 18 At times like this I'm glad I only do DC! BT technicians would be proud of the wiring, NTP! 🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntpntpntp Posted August 18 Share Posted August 18 @Hobby11 That is the underside of one of my DC N gauge layout modules 🙂 This is the other side of that board 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ateshci Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 The only advantage of DCC is that it does away with cab control wiring. The remainder stays the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 (edited) Not quite ateshci. The fundamental difference will always be that with DC, the track is controlled, however you may or may not split up that track, whereas with DCC, the locos and accessories are controlled individually. Edited August 20 by Fishmanoz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntpntpntp Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 (edited) @ateshci Pretty much. With DCC you can of course localise control of points and signals to electronics under the board and just connect the modules to the bus and thus removing the need for multicore cables of wires from the control panel 🙂 Indeed, there are other multiplexing systems you can use that aren't DCC. @Fishmanoz I think ateschi's referring to the wiring requirements rather than how DCC works 🙂 Edited August 20 by ntpntpntp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby11 Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Fishmanoz said: Not quite ateshci. The fundamental difference will always be that with DC, the track is controlled, however you may or may not split up that track, whereas with DCC, the locos and accessories are controlled individually. I keep seeing that, but it's a matter of interpretation, with DC you are still controlling the loco just like DCC but differently. You can turn your controller up and down to your heart's content but unless there's a loco there nothing will happen, you can't control the track! Edited August 20 by Hobby11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTSR_NSE Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 (edited) @Hobby11 ‘controlling the track’ refers to the fact that with DC, every loco on the controlled section of track responds to the controller. Whereas with DCC you have to tell each loco independently how to operate - if you simply turn a dial/move a slider, (without selecting a loco address) nothing responds! Edited August 20 by LTSR_NSE 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ukpetey Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 In other news but on the subject of DCC turnout clips, I am pleased to advise that today I became a ‘master’ in the fitment of these small and springy devils. I have had some poor experiences previously trying to fit these, including pinging off and vanishing (the clips not me!) Today was the day that I decided it was time to show these little bas***ds who was boss! I selected from my newly arrived tweezer set a likely assistant, and knuckled down. Twelve clips fitted to six points without incident, within five minutes, and not even a bad swear! Champion! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobby11 Posted August 20 Share Posted August 20 (edited) 41 minutes ago, LTSR_NSE said: @Hobby11 ‘controlling the track’ refers to the fact that with DC, every loco on the controlled section of track responds to the controller. Whereas with DCC you have to tell each loco independently how to operate - if you simply turn a dial/move a slider, (without selecting a loco address) nothing responds! Just a different way to describe controlling a loco, then, but not controlling the track. Why people have to try to make one look better than the other is beyond me, in both cases we aren't in the cab, are we!! Edited August 20 by Hobby11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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