Upgrading to DCC

[dj Alex]

As someone who is new to the world of model railways, I could do with some advice. I have purchased some new and second hand loco's and I would like to know if all loco's can be converted to DCC and if so how do I find out what decoders are required for the different loco's that I have.

[RDS]

Hi and welcome to the forum.

In theory all loco's can be converted to DCC, some are easy, some are difficult and there are some that are very difficult.

The most difficult ones I have come across were Bachmann split chassis Locomotives, where it was extremely difficult to isolate the chassis from the wheels to allow the decoder to be wired up.

In terms of the type of decoder, it depends on which Loco's you have.  Some may even be what is known as 'DCC ready' where all that is needed is a decoder to plug into the socket that has been provided.  Others and probably more likely with older second hand ones will need hard wiring.

One thing that is recommended though, is to run the Loco on DC first and get it running well.  A Loco that will not run well on DC, will be worse on DCC.

If you would like to list out the Loco's you have, between us on here we will be able to guide you through the type of decoders you need.

[Fishmanoz]

As a general rule, all locos will work with the same decoder and the Hornby R8249 is their basic decoder For the job.  The exceptions are much older locos that need more current than the 500mA that the the 8249 produces. Hornby has an R8245 that will do the job with these and there are many other brands on the market. Within their current limitations they are all much the same as they are made to the same NMRA a specification. 

To look at how to fit decoders, you can start with the DCC section of this web site where you will find instructions for many Hornby types. Next Google Brisn Lambert and go to his DCC section and you'll find a lot more advice. And finally Google Bromsgrove Models and you'll find even more listed there. These 2 sites have instructions for the more complicated types that RDS a mentions. 

And don't be afraid to come back and ask more questions here. There are already lots of fitting instructions in the forums with pictures but, even with the Search facility, they can be hard to find. 

[Augustus Caesar]

@Fishy

Just a slight correction to a name from a small typo mate, :-) , and for the benefit of dj_Alex...

The name to search for is actually Brian Lambert and not as spelt above... i.e. Brisn!

Just can't get the members these days... lol

[Fishmanoz]

Thanks AC, one of my standard typos and I missed it. 

[spaintrain]

As someone who is new to the world of model railways, I could do with some advice. I have purchased some new and second hand loco's and I would like to know if all loco's can be converted to DCC and if so how do I find out what decoders are required for the different loco's that I have.

 

[spaintrain]

Hope it's OK to 'piggy-back' on this thread rather than start a new one, as much of the content applies.

 

I am, however a very old railway modeller, having started in 1952 with an early Rovex Train set, and built up over the years since then. The first 12 years were spent developing a fairly advanced technology for the time, dividing the layout into several discreet, insulated sections, with copious relays, resistors and toggle switches to enable continuous independent operation of up to 6 trains on two ovals, using a stylus on a track plan (painted on plywood, with small bolts acting as contacts) to select and change points as necessary.

 

After a few years break as family were growing up, I carried on developing to the point where I now have a 4m x 3m semi-permanent ( on a steel framed board that can be folded away when floor space is needed) 3 level layout, comprising 2 simple ovals and 2 figures of 8, all interconnected, which together with sidings use some 60 pairs of points. The relays are smaller (and cheaper) than they were 50 years ago. The track plan is miniaturised in laminated Perspex and the lights showing the setting of each pair of points are coloured LEDs rather than torch bulbs, but the technology hasn't really moved on and the consequent wiring beneath the board is unimaginably complex, rendering identification and repair of minor faults incredibly difficult and time consuming.

 

I am therefore, with much trepidation, being forced to consider converting the layout to digital, but have three key questions on which advice is required please.

 

First; all signalling and point indicator lights are switched by the points themselves, and rely on having a short section of insulated track on the outer end of the point, which necessarily becomes powered when the point is set in that direction. Every single set of points on the layout therefore has two insulated rails, which when live, set signals to open and light the appropriate LED on the track plan; and when dead, set signal to danger and have the added benefit of stopping any approaching locomotive, which otherwise would have crashed on the points. So, is conversion to Digital likely to cause problems in this area? I appreciate I would have to permanently link power to the track beyond the isolated section, but I do that anyway at present, using a switched relay link, that will become redundant, so in my view it should considerably simplify the wiring and still allow my systems to operate. But am I right in this assumption? Or is there a snag I've not thought of?

 

Secondly, closely linked to the first query, at present I cannot use the analogue track control circuits for signalling, relay and indicator control as of course the voltage varies, so have separate individual transformers for every set of points. As I see it, with Digital, the voltage being constant, I should be able to use the track circuit for this and so save the 60 miniature transformers and a mile or two of wiring. The only possible snag I can see is that, LEDs being directional, I will have to change wiring direction on half of them to accommodate this, but rewiring 60 LEDs seems a small price to pay for the massive reduction in wiring, especially since I would expect to use the steel chassis on which the board is mounted as a negative earth, so saving nearly half of all required cabling. But can anyone see any problems I may have missed in this solution please?

 

Third, and much simpler, a layout of this age necessarily has a wide variety of locomotives, from the oginal Rovex stud-contact Princess Elizabeth (not working, so no problem) through to modern, which again should not present too much problem - I hope. My biggest concerns are for some of my older stock; R50/53 Princess Royal, a Triang Wrenn 2211 Mallard, R351 Electra, Double ended electric Loco with working pantographs and a pair of 060 tank engines - R51S and R52. Are any of these likely to prove impossible to convert? And just how much help am i likely to need?

 

Trouble is, I can't just nip down to the local model shop or club for advice as I live in a very remote part of Spain, with no mains water or electricity, having to rely on solar, wind and wells, so most help will have to be online.

 

Sorry a bit long-winded but thougyht background may be helpful

[spaintrain]

Sorry I don't understand where the colour or other extra bits came from in the previous post, but I'm not about to re-type it so if anyone knows how to tidy it up, then please do, or tell me how to.

[96RAF]

Sorry I made a right mess of that didn't I, thinking it would save time to prepare off line and then paste, so question is How do I delete that load of rubbish and start again?

 

Maybe Admin would look at adding a DELETE POST button so those of us who make a pig's ear of things can salvage their embarrassment.

[RDS]

I don't think it needs deleting but maybe Adam in admin can delete all occurences of the square brackets and their contents.

[spaintrain]

Sorry I made a right mess of that didn't I, thinking it would save time to prepare off line and then paste, so question is How do I delete that load of rubbish and start again?

 

 

Maybe Admin would look at adding a DELETE POST button so those of us who make a pig's ear of things can salvage their embarrassment.

 

Great idea. I presume no such option exists then and I've spent ages trying to find one. You'll just have to put my mess down to incompetence and senility, but hopefully folks can work out what I was trying to get at.

 

[RB51]

 

Sorry I made a right mess of that didn't I, thinking it would save time to prepare off line and then paste, so question is How do I delete that load of rubbish and start again?

 

 

 

Maybe Admin would look at adding a DELETE POST button so those of us who make a pig's ear of things can salvage their embarrassment.

 

Great idea. I presume no such option exists then and I've spent ages trying to find one. You'll just have to put my mess down to incompetence and senility, but hopefully folks can work out what I was trying to get at.

 

Hi Spaintrain - your response nearly got lost as it has ended up in the previous persons reply box (shaded yellow). This is because your cursor is placed in that box automatically so that you can edit the post you are replying to should you so wish. When you have edited and you are ready to reply place your cursor outside the yellow boxes and we can all see what is what. Does that make sense? R-

[96RAF]

Re this inside and outside the box problem - the matter has been raised in the Forum Feedback posting area.

[RB51]

Re this inside and outside the box problem - the matter has been raised in the Forum Feedback posting area.

 

I understand so RAF - just in case others hadn't seen the thread. It appears it is not as intuitive as we might think. Perhaps it will catch on though. R-

[Graskie]

I nearly had that problem earlier tonight and, suddenly realising that my answer would appear in the yellow box, had to click below it to send a white background reply. Not very clever, is it? Also I wanted my picture to appear below my message but the system didn't seem to want to comply. It probably has not come through yet because of vetting.

 

Your message made perfect sense to me, ST, because I just ignored the bracketed colour parts. I don't know how you achieved it, but please don't feel embarrased. Buena suerte!

[Yelrow]

Not another held up picture, why not start a book on how many are being held up. john

[Graskie]

Incidentally, ST, it sounds as if you would have a massive job switching to DCC with what you have, especially the old locos. It's the way to go, though, if you really want to, and I myself have never regretted doing so, although I started converting about 5 years ago. I now have a degree in DCC operation and RM! Your layout sounds just a bit bigger than mine, however.

 

Sounds like you're about my old age. My elder brother and I had our first Rovex/Tri-ang Princess Lizzie set in about 1954/55.

[spaintrain]

Incidentally, ST, it sounds as if you would have a massive job switching to DCC with what you have, especially the old locos. It's the way to go, though, if you really want to, and I myself have never regretted doing so, although I started converting about 5 years ago. I now have a degree in DCC operation and RM! Your layout sounds just a bit bigger than mine, however.

 

Sounds like you're about my old age. My elder brother and I had our first Rovex/Tri-ang Princess Lizzie set in about 1954/55.

My first was a present on my twelth birthday, so well into 70s now, but keeping fit with life here in the sun. No comments on my track wiring, which I'm taking to mean my proposals should work ok. But just how big is problem of converting old locos? Do I gather I'll need to allocate more than an hour to each then?

[poliss]

Here's what you would have to do to convert the EM2 Electra.

 

http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=10378&forum_id=10#p188112

[RDS]

 

 

 

... But just how big is problem of converting old locos? Do I gather I'll need to allocate more than an hour to each then?

Hi spaintrain

It differs from model to model. I have converted a lot of old Loco's (00 gauge) to DCC and most have been fairly straight forward. The ones that I have found difficult are Bachmann Steam Loco's with a split chassis because the chassis is used to conduct the power to one side of the motor and it is difficult (but not impossible) to isolate it.

It may be an idea for you list out the Loco's you wish to convert and someone on here should be able to help if you need it.

 

An hour should be OK for a straight forward one.

[spaintrain]

Here's what you would have to do to convert the EM2 Electra.

 

http://yourmodelrailway.net/view_topic.php?id=10378&forum_id=10#p188112

Very helpful that. I gather from other comments that there are two different decoders depending on power consumption of the motor. Do you happen to know which is required for the EM2 please?

[poliss]

I should say you need the sapphire or other decoder with a 1amp continuous spec. The standard Hornby decoder won't be enough

[spaintrain]

I should say you need the sapphire or other decoder with a 1amp continuous spec. The standard Hornby decoder won't be enough

Thanks, I'll try ordering one of each as I've several modern locos, which should run OK on the lower powered one, and run a few tests. Probably back with results in 6 months or so!!

 

Incidentally, I'd would like to be able to run up to 12 locos simultaneously if possible, so is the R8213 a non-starter - the larger R8214 does seem a bit over the top. Also, I'm used to having separate controllers for each 'rolling section', switching the section controlled as each train moves, so each controller effectively controls a single loco as it moves around. These digital controllers therefore look a bit strange as it appears that a single knob controls many locos, depending on selection. Do you set speed for loco number 1, then switch to the second, leaving No 1 continuing at the set speed? Sorry to ask a probably silly question, but I can see myself getting lost with this approach - there's no economic way, I presume of having 12 speed controllers, so each controls a separate loco?

[RDS]

... I presume of having 12 speed controllers, so each controls a separate loco?

No, with DCC you only have one controller and the complete circuit is live all the time. You are right about the single knob (or 2 in the case of Elite) controlling many loco's. If you use RailMaster and control your layout using the computer, 12 loco's is easily possible.

[Fishmanoz]

Just to be doubly clear, it is not possible to run more then one controller on a DCC circuit, so it isn't economy, it's necessity you have only one. So yes, you set up one and leave it running while you go to the next, then have to come back to the first to change it. With Elite, you have 2 immediately available on the 2 knobs but then have to switch to others and come back to get at the first 2.

 

So so as you say, you'd get lost with 12 and find yourself hitting emergency stop often to avoid disasters.

 

And to clarify with RM, it is possible to have up to 10 loco throttles on screen at the same time so easy to control 10. Still difficult beyond that unless you write a program which could be used to control as many as you like at the same time without you having to do anything but watch.