Is a bus wire necessary?

[PJ_model_trains]

It is clear when we are enjoying our hobby, time passes by and the misses shouts,

'are you in there with your trains again' ;o)

[Yelrow]

Or, are you waiting for a bus. Where i live, you will wait for ever. john

[Gazah]

It is clear when we are enjoying our hobby, time passes by and the misses shouts,

'are you in there with your trains again' ;o)

 

Not sure I should admit this buy the missus does the scenary and makes the building from the kits!!!

 

So we are in it together, so comments are 'we best stop now its late and the kids need to go to bed', son also there as well and does he argue lol he just wants to play trains!!!

[Yelrow]

There is nothing wrong with that, My wife ties all my trout flies. You opened a hornets nest with your bus question, which comes up regularly. Its a matter of whether you go with hornby, who say it is not necessary, or the god of DCC, brian lambert, who recommends it. We all know who PJ follows, and may be ............. john

[PJ_model_trains]

Or, are you waiting for a bus. Where i live, you will wait for ever. john

 

I agree John. And when they do come they come in threes!

[poliss]

The electrical bus, or busbar, has been around since electrickery was invented by Joseph Swan, John.

 

As I said earlier, DC or DCC, doesn't come into it. Having a bus is good practice.

 

On DCC, you shouldn't forget that Hornby were the last manufacturer to come to the party.

[Bulleidboy]

See what I mean Gaz.

 

This could run and run Fish!

[RDS]

I wonder if anyone ever fitted a bus because they were having problems, rather than just fitting one just in case?

[Bulleidboy]

I think if you've done your homework before starting, you would probably fit one from the outset. It is an improvement over the basic set-up. You don't have to have to have frog polarity on your points, but it can improve running over the point if you do this upgrade. Unless your unlucky most things work straight out of the box, but there are always small improvements that can make things even better.

[96RAF]

I wonder if anyone ever fitted a bus because they were having problems, rather than just fitting one just in case?

 

I did. My layout is 4 x 4 ft by 2 ft boards in an 'L' shape and I had problems across some of the board joins at the initial track testing stage, so I installed a 2-wire bus into each board with droppers from each track section and used plug-in choc-blocs across the joins.

 

My previous pre-bus fault finding methodology was to put a thumb on each rail join and feel for heat, due to electrical resistance across slack fishplates, then tighten any problematic ones with a hammer and screwdriver to nip them up.

 

Was it worth it? I think so as any running problems now are purely down to accumulated muck on the rails and wheels from lack of regular running and the over abundance of air-borne dust out here. I suppose I should sack the cleaner.

[PJ_model_trains]

I wonder if anyone ever fitted a bus because they were having problems, rather than just fitting one just in case?

 

Hi RDS

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Not sure I am understanding your last comment, it could be me thought ;o)

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I wonder if anyone ever fitted a bus because they were having problems... if they take some peoples advice on here they will not fit one until they have a problem.

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rather than just fitting one just in case?... You fit a DCC Bus so you don't have the problems later not in case you do?

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PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

I think if you've done your homework before starting, you would probably fit one from the outset. It is an improvement over the basic set-up.

Well said bulleidboy

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I am also reading your signature... The older I get.... the bigger it was!

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The older the layout gets... the bigger it was! or the bigger the risk!

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We don't have to install a DCC Bus that is true, but it is important we know the facts so we can make a calculated decision.

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PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

And don't forget to twist the cable ;o)

[Teedoubleudee]

I understand the argument for not using bus wires if you are forever making changes to the track layout. Personally, I want to build a layout that stays the same for it's lifetime - if you spend as much time planning as you do building you "should" get it more or less right first time. I made the mistake of soldering some of the fishplates on my last baseboard before discovering I needed to replace a point. This time I am going for belt and braces as I've had problems in the past. So I've laid the bus using 2.5mm copper wire stripped from some spare mains cable I had lying around. Unlike my last BB, I'm not connecting it as a "ring" as I read someone saying this could cause timing issues with the DCC signal which I fully understand (it's a bit like your TV ghosting when your aerial receives a direct signal from the transmitter slightly before the same signal a fraction of a second later after it's bounced off a building or hillside). I don't think it would be an issue but with 2.5mm copper wire I don't think there will be any issues with voltage drops (it's only a 6x4' layout) by not connecting it as a ring.

 

I'm now laying the track and fitting a pair of dropper wires to EVERY section of track, points included. All points are electrofrog with frog switching via the point motor. It means a hell of a lot of extra holes to drill, wires to solder and connecting to the bus but hopefully it will be worth all the effort just to see smooth running trains. It's taking time but at least I'll know if I get any loco stuttering it will be down to the loco itself or dirt on the rail tops. Some of you guys will probably think I'm going way OTT but I'm enjoying myself ;-)

[Graskie]

That's the main thing - enjoy whatever you do do.

[PJ_model_trains]

I understand the argument for not using bus wires..... This time I am going for belt and braces as I've had problems in the past.

I'm now laying the track and fitting a pair of dropper wires to EVERY section of track, points included..... It means a hell of a lot of extra holes to drill, wires to solder and connecting to the bus but hopefully it will be worth all the effort just to see smooth running trains. It's taking time but at least I'll know if I get any loco stuttering it will be down to the loco itself or dirt on the rail tops. Some of you guys will probably think I'm going way OTT but I'm enjoying myself ;-)

It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks Teedoubleudee, all we should do is give you the facts and let you decide, after ll every layout is different, our circumstances are different, our patience levels are different, etc. Do what is right for you and enjoy your hobby. ;o)

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Are you going over the top, specialist like Brian Lambert say not, they say you should do every rail. I must admit, I listened but didn't do what the specialists say, I did every other length of standard track, my risk assessment was, if fish plates weaken it must be rare to happen both ends of a piece of track. But, I emphasise this was my consideration I cann ot say it is right because the specialists say, every standard track length.

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I must also admit I didn't do the points, just the track either side. Points can need replacing so I left them but, do at times wonder if I should and if I did, how many droppers should be added to a standard set of points.

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What you are doing is right, not OTT.

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But most important you are enjoying your hobby, you are also setting the foundation to enjoy it for many years to come. Well done, good luck and Enjoy ;-)

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PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

That's the main thing - enjoy whatever you do do.

Well said Graskie, what ever you do do, Enjoy ;o)

[poliss]

If you're changing the layout all the time then I would recommend using the Japanese track specially made for the purpose. Permanent layouts are unusual in Japan because of the lack of space in their apartments.

 

It always makes me laugh when they say don't make a ring bus. Ignore their advice Teedoubluedee. If you followed it then you could never have a layout with continuous run, such as an oval, because the track itself would act as a such a bus. Electrickery travels at the speed of light. You would need an absolutely massive layout for the 'signal' timing to be out of phase. Maybe a mile or more, and then voltage drop would be the problem.

[Teedoubleudee]

.......I must also admit I didn't do the points, just the track either side. Points can need replacing so I left them but, do at times wonder if I should and if I did, how many droppers should be added to a standard set of points........

 

PJ

Well as I said, regarding points I'm using electrofrogs. The latest P**O ones have a couple of links on the heel side of the frog to snip off and then you can connect the stock rails to the non-moving part of the "changeover rail" (sorry don't know the correct terminology but I'm sure someone on here will put me straight ;-), by soldering a small link across. I read somewhere (probably on here) suggesting that while you are doing that just extend the wire to become a dropper wire - great idea so thanks whoever suggested it.

[Teedoubleudee]

If you're changing the layout all the time then I would recommend using the Japanese track specially made for the purpose. Permanent layouts are unusual in Japan because of the lack of space in their apartments.

 

It always makes me laugh when they say don't make a ring bus. Ignore their advice Teedoubluedee. If you followed it then you could never have a layout with continuous run, such as an oval, because the track itself would act as a such a bus. Electrickery travels at the speed of light. You would need an absolutely massive layout for the 'signal' timing to be out of phase. Maybe a mile or more, and then voltage drop would be the problem.

 

Agreed. I could still complete the ring but probably won't bother now as I'm rushing to complete the track laying so I can move it inside for the winter and the car can have it's garage back!

[PJ_model_trains]

If you're changing the layout all the time then I would recommend using the Japanese track specially made for the purpose. Permanent layouts are unusual in Japan because of the lack of space in their apartments.

 

It always makes me laugh when they say don't make a ring bus. Ignore their advice Teedoubluedee. If you followed it then you could never have a layout with continuous run, such as an oval, because the track itself would act as a such a bus. Electrickery travels at the speed of light. You would need an absolutely massive layout for the 'signal' timing to be out of phase. Maybe a mile or more, and then voltage drop would be the problem.

Interesting comment about Japan Poliss.

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Thinking about portability, this stilll doesn't stop people having a DCC Bus. A little thought and it can be done what ever the shape or number of pieces. Show displays, using DCC, would no doubt do this.

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PJ

[2e0dtoeric]

There is a way of making a semi-portable/dismantleable layout - with a bus, and without drilling loads of holes.

 

Assuming you don't particularly care about having wires visible on top of the board, and assuming you can use a soldering iron, simply solder a short stub of wire to each rail, at each end of each piece of track, then join them together with 'choc-block' connectors, once the track plan is to your satisfaction.

 

That way you have the positive electrical connection, without relying on the fish-plates. (Positive, in this case is not the pos and neg of electrical circuits, but positive as in secure)

 

Then all you need to re-arrange any or everything, is a screwdriver.

 

 

 

On another forum, I saw an ad from circa 1950, with two children and a train set. They had track that could be rolled up, like a length of foam ballast underlay! I wonder what happened to that idea, or was it someone's pipe-dream?

 

I'll have to try to find it again, and see if there is a copyable link.

[Fishmanoz]

If you're changing the layout all the time then I would recommend using the Japanese track specially made for the purpose. Permanent layouts are unusual in Japan because of the lack of space in their apartments.

 

It always makes me laugh when they say don't make a ring bus. Ignore their advice Teedoubluedee. If you followed it then you could never have a layout with continuous run, such as an oval, because the track itself would act as a such a bus. Electrickery travels at the speed of light. You would need an absolutely massive layout for the 'signal' timing to be out of phase. Maybe a mile or more, and then voltage drop would be the problem.

I agree with you about ring buses poliss although the electrical reason may be a little different. We are not talking "out of phase" rather any significant phase difference at DCC frequency. But again it is going to be negligible And it is only going to be from one end of a loco to the other anyway. It doesn't matter at all that there is a slight phase difference at points around the track As everything effectively picks up from a single point.

 

If if someone wants to do the maths and let us know, please do so.

[PJ_model_trains]

You are so right Fishy...

 

We are not talking "out of phase" --- DCC Bus is not a phase it is here to stay ;o)

 

(I guess so are the arguments for and against, and everywhere in between)

 

PJ

[houseofmil]

Hi there. Im going to be installing a DCC Bus to my layout and i have a few questions?

How do you solder droppers to the track.