Points controlling other points

[Teedoubleudee]

Hi Guys, I've had a quick trawl through the threads here but can't see what I'm looking for.

The manual says you can set one point and by doing so set another. Let me explain. I have two lines into a terminus and I have a crossover (2 LH points) to allow a loco to run round a train. So I want to set the points to both straight ahead or both to turn into each other to make the crossover. It's no big deal to switch both points individually each time but if i'ts possible to link them together I should like to know how? Cheers.

[poliss]

Switching two points together It is sometime desirable to activate multiple points at the same time; the user enters a single point address and two or more points activate in unison. This can be achieved by setting up two or more PADs with the same address i.e. all PADs with a common address range will individually fire the same port when accessed. This practice is sometimes referred to as “Shadowing.” The R8247 unit was designed to reliably activate a single point motor/point. However, in practice it was found that there was enough “capacity” to switch 2 parallel connected point motors with a reasonable reliability. A practice adopted by some users is to use this ability when controlling two point back to back e.g. when passing from one loop of track to another. However, the above technique can have its draw backs. We must point out that the “cycle time of the on-board CDU (capacitor discharge unit) maybe longer due to the increased load of two point motors together. When activating a series of points in this “doubled up” configuration it is advisable to wait at least 6 seconds or so between each action. Please note: In some cases it is possible for the on-board CDU to fail to activate two Point Motors/points connected commonly if the points in question are mechanically “tight.” This can happen if the point is not mounted absolutely flat or is blocked in some way by landscaping materials. This issue is a case of experimentation to see if the R8247 can supply enough energy to activate the pair of points. 

[Graskie]

 

Wonderful answer, poliss. I might be in that situation sometime next year with not only crossovers but single slips.

[poliss]

I just save 'em from HCC posts of yesteryear.

[Cowplain]

Switching two points together It is sometime desirable to activate multiple points at the same time; the user enters a single point address and two or more points activate in unison. This can be achieved by setting up two or more PADs with the same address i.e. all PADs with a common address range will individually fire the same port when accessed. This practice is sometimes referred to as “Shadowing.” The R8247 unit was designed to reliably activate a single point motor/point. However, in practice it was found that there was enough “capacity” to switch 2 parallel connected point motors with a reasonable reliability. A practice adopted by some users is to use this ability when controlling two point back to back e.g. when passing from one loop of track to another. However, the above technique can have its draw backs. We must point out that the “cycle time of the on-board CDU (capacitor discharge unit) maybe longer due to the increased load of two point motors together. When activating a series of points in this “doubled up” configuration it is advisable to wait at least 6 seconds or so between each action. Please note: In some cases it is possible for the on-board CDU to fail to activate two Point Motors/points connected commonly if the points in question are mechanically “tight.” This can happen if the point is not mounted absolutely flat or is blocked in some way by landscaping materials. This issue is a case of experimentation to see if the R8247 can supply enough energy to activate the pair of points. 

I have been running three pairs of points connected as individual pairs to R8247 Decoders for some time now and have had no problems with them. Whilst I don't disagree with the 6 second, or so cycle time, I can not envisage a senario where I would want to re-fire the point within 6 seconds. However, I have had one problem with an R8247 with a pair of points connected to one port, but that was due to a short which wrote off the decoder. Due to the lack of availability of a replacement R8247 I have had to us a Train-Tech PC2 decoder and this also works fine with "twinned points."

[idlemarvel]

and the good thing is RM allows for this and lets you define two points on the same address

[GWR Greg]

The pro pack enable up to ten points to linked so that activating one active all the others in sequence.

[Teedoubleudee]

Thanks for the reply Poliss though I'm not sure it answers my question fully. I am using DCConcepts AD-S8 decoders (which BTW have individual CDUs on each port) and I guess I could, (if I follow your logic) set 2 of them to the same port number. That should fix it.

But, reading the RM manual it seems to say that you can do this via the RM software by adding a setting in the point controller that says something like "everytime I switch point 'A'  I also want to switch point 'B'. (A and B having different port numbers).

Hope that makes sense?

[PJ_model_trains]

 

Hi

 

I have the AD-S8 decoders, I just set both points to the same address and thats it, job done.

 

Change any one in RM and they both change no problem.

 

The AD-S8 is also so easy to program.

 

PJ

[PJ_model_trains]

and the good thing is RM allows for this and lets you define two points on the same address

This is very true

Another good thing is often RM will often give us more than one way to do things

Excellent software

PJ

[St1ngr4y]

Thanks for the reply Poliss though I'm not sure it answers my question fully. I am using DCConcepts AD-S8 decoders (which BTW have individual CDUs on each port) and I guess I could, (if I follow your logic) set 2 of them to the same port number. That should fix it.

But, reading the RM manual it seems to say that you can do this via the RM software by adding a setting in the point controller that says something like "everytime I switch point 'A'  I also want to switch point 'B'. (A and B having different port numbers).

Hope that makes sense?

Hi TWD,

If you are using ADS8s, you can easily connect both points to the same port on the decoder, because the CDU has quite a powerful kick. I have two or three crossovers wired this way with ADS8s and have had no problems.

Ray

[PJ_model_trains]

Excellent advise Ray

This works if the port has not been used, I found if I set it for one point wire and screwed it down, then decided to add another point to that port, it was hard to get two wires in afterwards.

PJ

[Teedoubleudee]

Thanks Ray, I had thought of doing that as well - I agree the ADS8 certainly has a kick. Should have thought about it before I tidied up my wiring with pretty looms etc LOL. Think I will give it a try.

I'd still like to understand what the RM manual means regarding linking 2 or more points together though.

[96RAF]

Thanks Ray, I had thought of doing that as well - I agree the ADS8 certainly has a kick. Should have thought about it before I tidied up my wiring with pretty looms etc LOL. Think I will give it a try.

I'd still like to understand what the RM manual means regarding linking 2 or more points together though.

Take a look at the way the double slip example track plan has set up its motors.

[St1ngr4y]

Thanks Ray, I had thought of doing that as well - I agree the ADS8 certainly has a kick. Should have thought about it before I tidied up my wiring with pretty looms etc LOL. Think I will give it a try.

I'd still like to understand what the RM manual means regarding linking 2 or more points together though.

Take a look at the way the double slip example track plan has set up its motors.

Hi,

I've just had a look at that and I can't see how that works. You need to be able to control both "halves" independently. The position of one point motor on a double slip shouldn't be tied to the position of the other one.

Ray

[Fishmanoz]

TWD, there are 2 separate things here. The first is the ability of one port to switch 2 motors connected to it. This works reliably unless the point motors are Seeps which use a higher current to operate. Previous postings indicate you can only switch one of these although I'm not sure if that is confirmed for the ADS8. 

 

The second thing is to program subsequent things to happen when a point switches as part of the setup for the point in RM. 

 

The two things are quite separate. 

[Teedoubleudee]

TWD, there are 2 separate things here. The first is the ability of one port to switch 2 motors connected to it. This works reliably unless the point motors are Seeps which use a higher current to operate. Previous postings indicate you can only switch one of these although I'm not sure if that is confirmed for the ADS8. 

 

The second thing is to program subsequent things to happen when a point switches as part of the setup for the point in RM. 

 

The two things are quite separate. 

Yes, you are quite correct. My original post was to find out how the RM software could be set up (which I think the manual says is possible), though having read my post back I see that wasn't made clear, so sorry for any confusion.

 I would still like to know the answer to this as it's a quicker solution to me upending the board (again) and rewiring. If someone tells me it's not possible to do what I think it says in the manual then that's what I will have to do.

[francisk]

TWD, there are 2 separate things here. The first is the ability of one port to switch 2 motors connected to it. This works reliably unless the point motors are Seeps which use a higher current to operate. Previous postings indicate you can only switch one of these although I'm not sure if that is confirmed for the ADS8. 

 

The second thing is to program subsequent things to happen when a point switches as part of the setup for the point in RM. 

 

The two things are quite separate. 

Yes, you are quite correct. My original post was to find out how the RM smoftware could be set up (which I think the manual says is possible), though having read my post back I see that wasn't made clear, so sorry for any confusion.

 I would still like to know the answer to this as it's a quicker solution to me upending the board (again) and rewiring. If someone tells me it's not possible to do what I think it says in the manual then that's what I will have to do.

Ink in NY

[St1ngr4y]

Hi TWD,

This image of part of my layout diagram shows how I have configured one point to fire others. This part of my layout I refer to as the "hidden sidings". Eight tracks, HS1 thru HS8, fan out from one - point 48 splits the approach into two, then 45 & 48 split them into four, then finally points 5, 6, 7, 8 split these four into eight. At the other end of these sdings are 7 more points mirroring the above and bringing these eight tracks back into one. I have shown the configuration of one of the final four points (point 8). Each of points 5, 6, & 7 have similar configurations. This means I can select any one of the sidings HS1 thru HS8 by clicking on ONE of the red/green buttons belonging tp points 5 - 8, and RM will set the other points (45, 46, 48 at this end, and 16, 49, 50 and 52 at the other end). Points 13-16 are the equivalents of points 5-8 at the other end of the hidden sidings.

/media/tinymce_upload/Points.png

A bit more complicated than your simple crossover, but I hope you get the idea.

Ray

[St1ngr4y]

TWD,

I think this is nearer to what you had in mind:-

/media/tinymce_upload/Points_2.png

If you click either left or right on point 1, RM will click the same direction on point 2, and vice  versa.

Ray

[Cowplain]

I recently contacted DCC Concepts regarding the wiring of two points into one port and they were quite adamant that the ADS8 was not powerful enough to routinely operate two points from the same port, but that the upgraded version ADS8FX is.

[GWR Greg]

If you have the pro pack then within the points set up window there is a section "other points". You can tell RM to change another point here. I have cross overs set up in this way. Changing one point changes both points. See the RM manual.

[Teedoubleudee]

TWD,

I think this is nearer to what you had in mind:-

/media/tinymce_upload/Points_2.png

If you click either left or right on point 1, RM will click the same direction on point 2, and vice  versa.

Ray

Ah-Ha GOT IT!  I have been playing with this before but couldn't see how to add the L/R buttons and then almost accidentally clicked the mouse in the right place after reading your post. Both signals now working how I want them - AND best of all I didn't need to rewire, so thanks all, especially to Ray for your detailed posts.

I still think the manual could be a little bit more helpful here. My copy is Version1.57 (Plus optional PRO Pack) revision October 2014. I assume that is the latest though I'm actually using RM 1.58?

Terry

[RDS]

Yes, thanks Ray.  

I have certainly learned something as well, reading your posts (and what an excellent use of the picture feature!)

It makes me almost want to fit some point motors to my rather basic layout.

[Spireblade]

This thread has been a Godsend to me. The RM instructions say that it can be done but you are left to fathom out how! I too accidentally brought up the green and red buttons and worked out how to do it with the help of this thread.

 

My problem is that although the points are "in sync" as it were, the grey direction indicators on the points onscreen are opposites. For the life of me I can't work out how to sinc them up.