WildSwan Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Hi All, I am new around here and have a couple of potentially dumb questions please..... I have a DCC layout controled by the Elite and 9 x Accessory Decoders for point control. I also use Railmaster.Q1. Why..... do two of my locos on the main layout (one is Bachmann and the other is Heljan but they both have 21 pin Bachmann decoders on-board) drive forward and/or flash lights and generally go nots when I program a loco or an accessory on the programming track? Q2. Why.... do my accessory decoders seem to randomly set themselves back to address 1 from time to time? Any pointers appreciated. Thanks Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_A Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Q1, I had this problem with a Bmann Pullman 6 car set, also has a 21 pin Bachmann decoder. I reprogrammed the address (from 03 to 06) using the Elite in register mode and it cured it. I have no idea why, but might be worth trying re writing the addresses!Q2, are you sure you are not accidentally overwriting the address? Is it happening with all the accessory decoders, and what type are you using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildSwan Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 Q1, I had this problem with a Bmann Pullman 6 car set, also has a 21 pin Bachmann decoder. I reprogrammed the address (from 03 to 06) using the Elite in register mode and it cured it. I have no idea why, but might be worth trying re writing the addresses!Q2, are you sure you are not accidentally overwriting the address? Is it happening with all the accessory decoders, and what type are you using?I'll try re-writing the addresses to the locos and see if that makes any difference. I don't know how to program the accessory decoder address when it is connected to the main track bus? Anyhow, I am not aware that I am re-programing them. It's not all of them all of the time, it's just some of them some of the time. Today, for example, I had to disconnect two of them from the main DCC bus and connect one at a time to the Elite programming output port and re-programm the addresses. I write the address by setting CV 513 rather than using the write address feature for an accessory - primarliy because that's what the instructions say to do. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildSwan Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 Sorry... I'm using Hornby R8247s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Is the programming track completely isolated from the main layout, not attached in any way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 WS, 8247s are unfortunately known to sometimes reset themselves to 1-4, particularly if there has been a short on the layout. And yes, you can only reprogram them on the Programming Track output. WTD, there has been recent separate discussion about locos on the Track output responding when programming is done on an isolated programming output. Recommendation was that both outputs should not be connected at the same time, even when isolated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RB51 Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 Hi WS - I undersatnd that some decoders can re-set themselves after a power fluctuation - such as a short. Are you having any such issues? R- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildSwan Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 Hi WS - I undersatnd that some decoders can re-set themselves after a power fluctuation - such as a short. Are you having any such issues? R-It may well be after I drive a loco into a point set the wrong way and create a short - that could well be it. They shouldn't reset themselves anyhow?I'm wondering if I need a separate booster/bus for the accessory decoders anyway - would that stop the problem?It's a real pain having to disconnect them from the main bus and program them again.My main bus and programming track are currently connected to the Elite at the same time, they are completely issolated though.Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkingthedog Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 WTD, there has been recent separate discussion about locos on the Track output responding when programming is done on an isolated programming output. Recommendation was that both outputs should not be connected at the same time, even when isolated.I know that fishy but did the OP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildSwan Posted January 12, 2015 Author Share Posted January 12, 2015 WTD, there has been recent separate discussion about locos on the Track output responding when programming is done on an isolated programming output. Recommendation was that both outputs should not be connected at the same time, even when isolated.I know that fishy but did the OP?I've tried the suggestion and reprogrammed the address of the offending locos in Reg mode and - bingo - they no longer go nuts on the main track when I program something else on the programming track. I don't understand why, but it seems to have worked. Most excellent - thanks. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_A Posted January 12, 2015 Share Posted January 12, 2015 WTD, there has been recent separate discussion about locos on the Track output responding when programming is done on an isolated programming output. Recommendation was that both outputs should not be connected at the same time, even when isolated.I know that fishy but did the OP?I've tried the suggestion and reprogrammed the address of the offending locos in Reg mode and - bingo - they no longer go nuts on the main track when I program something else on the programming track. I don't understand why, but it seems to have worked. Most excellent - thanks. MarkTha't great. I have no idea why it worked for me either, but interesting that this is now a 'proven' soultion...to whatever the issue was! ;) Good luck now with the accessory decoders resetting themselves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildSwan Posted January 17, 2015 Author Share Posted January 17, 2015 Well my accessory decoder that was programmed 17-20 is now back to 1-4. Problem is the first I knew about it is when the wrong points changed and two locos met head to head. This really isn't clever. I have a two pronged plan now: 1. change by DCC bus from a ring and fit some RC filters at the ends and see of that helps2. No longer use address 1 i.e. points 1-4 so have none of my accessory decoders at address 1. Then when the damn things reset without warning I dont end up with expensive rolling stock smashed to bits. Not a happy camper :-( Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishmanoz Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Two good ideas there WS - belt and braces. Will be interested to hear how that works. But the 8247s shouldn't reset in the first place. The idea that you have to keep moving them to the programming track to keep them operational isn't right. Have you thought about returning them unfit under warranty? There are certainly better decoders out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildSwan Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 Two good ideas there WS - belt and braces. Will be interested to hear how that works. But the 8247s shouldn't reset in the first place. The idea that you have to keep moving them to the programming track to keep them operational isn't right. Have you thought about returning them unfit under warranty? There are certainly better decoders out there.That's an interesting suggestion, I have bought nine of these things! What would you suggest as an alternative? It seems these Horby units only have one CDU internally and ideally you would have one per output so they can fire in quick succession (I am currently considering rewiring mine so no two points that are likely to be changed on one route are wired from the same decoder). I think I need to approach eHattons and see of they will accept them as a resurn. I wonder.... Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I'm sure I read somewhere that acc decoders should be programmed in Reg mode, maybe it was the Elite manual and maybe it only applied to R8216 decoders.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilbo2 Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 How are your 8247's wired up? I had this problem until I connected them together in their own mini DCC ring bus (they were daisy chained togther). I did still have a couple of bad ones which were changed by Hornby under warranty though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildSwan Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 How are your 8247's wired up? I had this problem until I connected them together in their own mini DCC ring bus (they were daisy chained togther). I did still have a couple of bad ones which were changed by Hornby under warranty though.They are wired to the main (and only) dcc track bus. I've just asked Hattons if I can send them back and they have said yes. So I think I am going to get the EZ Command units 36-561 and use an external AC supply.Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted January 18, 2015 Share Posted January 18, 2015 I have 4 of these decoders and I have never had any problem with them, but my wiring is unconventional in that the eLink via RM provides a signal to the decoder, which output pulses into the coil of a relay, which in turn allows a big old fashioned GM CDU to fire always reliably the points, so my usage of the acc decoders is not really representative of the norm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildSwan Posted January 18, 2015 Author Share Posted January 18, 2015 I have 4 of these decoders and I have never had any problem with them, but my wiring is unconventional in that the eLink via RM provides a signal to the decoder, which output pulses into the coil of a relay, which in turn allows a big old fashioned GM CDU to fire always reliably the points, so my usage of the acc decoders is not really representative of the norm.I am really interested to learn how you have done this as I have been considering something similar myself. If the Accessory Decoder output connected to a latching relay I can understand how 2 CDUs would be needed for the set and reset - I have actually built a prototype of exactly this setup. (Quick scetch below) I would be very appreciative if you could explain how yours works please? Mark /media/tinymce_upload/dcc_cdu_(2).jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildSwan Posted January 20, 2015 Author Share Posted January 20, 2015 I have 4 of these decoders and I have never had any problem with them, but my wiring is unconventional in that the eLink via RM provides a signal to the decoder, which output pulses into the coil of a relay, which in turn allows a big old fashioned GM CDU to fire always reliably the points, so my usage of the acc decoders is not really representative of the norm.I am really interested to learn how you have done this as I have been considering something similar myself. If the Accessory Decoder output connected to a latching relay I can understand how 2 CDUs would be needed for the set and reset - I have actually built a prototype of exactly this setup. (Quick scetch below) I would be very appreciative if you could explain how yours works please? Mark /media/tinymce_upload/dcc_cdu_(2).jpgIf anyone is following this, an update from today. I sent the Hornby Accesory Decoders back yesterday by 2nd Class and have just received notification of a full refund from Hattons - excellent service - they have even refunded my return postage.I also took delivery today of 9 ESU SwitchPilots - 5 of which I have installed so far. Programming them is easy and I have used an external 15V 2A AC transformer with a slow blow 1A fuse in the output to provide the power to the switchpilot. The points are now switching with a reasuring thump - the hornby were very hit and miss - perhaps as I have some friction in the movement due to not perfect installation. However, conclusion is that these ESU units suit my setup much better than the Horby ones primarily as they can use an external supply for the power sent to the solenoids. All now looking mych, much better. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Very interesting, as ESU switch pilots, are known to be difficult to set up, in fact i gave up trying. Mine were through RM, so i could use external t/former. john Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 This is how I did it W-S, but you can use any analogue method in lieu of my rotary & push button switches - e.g. pen and stug, toggle switches, etc. For total protection against spikes you may want to add diodes across the relay coils, although I haven't had any problems. The bus shown is a points only bus, not part of the track bus. /media/tinymce_upload/gallery_7193_1326_10559.gif Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael_A Posted January 21, 2015 Share Posted January 21, 2015 Sorry to say that Hornby are way behind now in accessory decoders. Flaky, unreliable, only 1 CDU built in. Competitors (like the one already mentioned) have overtaken Hornby, which is a shame. Sometimes in buisness it's better to partnership with a successful manufacturer rather than keep competing and trying to develop your own product. Cuts costs, which can only benefit the buisness and hopefully customers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildSwan Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 This is how I did it W-S, but you can use any analogue method in lieu of my rotary & push button switches - e.g. pen and stug, toggle switches, etc. For total protection against spikes you may want to add diodes across the relay coils, although I haven't had any problems. The bus shown is a points only bus, not part of the track bus. /media/tinymce_upload/gallery_7193_1326_10559.gif What sort of relays are they, they must be some kind of momentary connection s the CDU will not recharge until the connection to the solenoid is broken. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildSwan Posted January 21, 2015 Author Share Posted January 21, 2015 Very interesting, as ESU switch pilots, are known to be difficult to set up, in fact i gave up trying. Mine were through RM, so i could use external t/former. johnI have RM with an elite - but I have just used the Elite to program the ESUs directly from the programming output. CV1 for address, CV3,4,5 & 6 set to 1 for peco point motors. I made a simple cable for the programming to connvct both the track and power connection to the programing output, Ialso put a 150R 1W resistor between out 1 and C as per instructions. I didn't try without the R or the power (not track) connections made, so don't know how esential these two are (both seem rather odd). All 9 ESUs are istalled and programmed without hitch; all points switching well and I can now use the routes and initial position settings in RM. With the hornby accessory decorders I had to set a 5 second delay (using railmaster.ini) between point firings and even then it was very hit and miss. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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