Loco Detection: What Is It and How Does It Work?

[hosh]

Yeah, I was only thinking about simple Red/green signalling.

 

I guess if someone is fussy enough, as I guess most would be if they have functioning signals on their layout, then the answer will be more sensors, both on the track and at the front AND rear of their trains. Gotta pay to play! :)

 

Does railmaster cater for sensors at both front and rear of trains?

[PJ_model_trains]

Hi hosh

 

Have a read there are lots of discussions on here.  

 

Sensors will go in the track, either in the sleeper or between them, which ever a person is most happy with. We are waiting for information on this but may have to wait until it is launched.

 

Tags are placed on the underside of your loco, tender, last carriage/wagon or guards van. The tags are read as they go over the sensors. Placing sensors will depend on finding a suitable location on the underside of the above to be able to fit it. We may like to add a sensor at the front (and rear) of the loco but if there is no room we won't be able to.

 

You are right... gotta pay to play. It will depend, as with signals, how much a person wants to or can afford to pay. Some will be happy with 2 aspect signals, others will also want 3 and 4 aspect and even feathers. Some will only add a few sensors with Loco Detection others will add a lot more. It will certainly be a balance of, what do you want from your hobby and what can you afford. Having said that some things will be more of a priority than others and some can be done over a period of time. What ever we do it will be exciting, taking model trains to a totally new level of control and enjoyment. ;-)

[hosh]

Wasn't there another more recent thread than this somewhere?

[Fishmanoz]

Hosh, you are right, there has definitely been more recent discussion.  I thought it was in this thread.  If it's not this one, then the whole thread of the more recent discussion has disappeared.

 

Adam?

[Slornie]

Yeah, it was called "Is This How LD Works?".  You can still find some of the posts for it in search (I searched for barcode as that seemed to be a common point of discussion), but clicking on one of them just produces an error rather than taking you to the thread.  Like this one.

[PJ_model_trains]

This is frustrating and not the firs time it has happened.

 

Trouble may be that sometimes a thread gets quite big due to the content and the waffle. The latter is unavoidable and all forums seem to suffer from it. But the point is, the thread included a lot of good information which can show up in searches  so why remove it?  I don't think it has been removed, if posts or threads were removed it would show immediately on the number of posts people have submitted. I think it has been disabled, mening it is still there but cannot be accessed.

 

For what reason we don't know, assuming the thread is just disabled it cannot be  to reduce the amount of storage memory the forum is using. The trouble is, I think, once something is removed like this it starts people asking questions, maybe coming up with the wrong answers but it makes people wonder why. Does it mean for instance LD is still a long way off coming?

 

Some may find it helpful, recently I have started adding the URL and thread details into an Excel file for reference to come back to. Links to the thread and links to specific pages of discussion. Specifically for signals and will do the same for LD and anything I consider important. Others may choose to do the same. It doesn't stop threads being removed or disabled but it does mean we will know sooner and being important discussions there has to be a question why the thread was removed or disabled.

 

The forum is meant to be a two way discussion, not just members, not just Hornby.

 

Adam your comments would help please.

[hosh]

Well, paranoid or not, I'm taking this as a bad sign.

 

I'm betting there were ideas in there that Hornby didn't want their customer base exposed to and getting their hopes up about, only to be let down by what LD / RM is actually going to be. Assuming it ever comes to fruition at all, something that's seeming harder to believe with every passing moment, day, week, month, year and even decade! :)

 

This post will self destruct in 10 seconds! LOL

[Howbi]

@ Hosh & PJ....allay your suspicious minds, Admin posted an explanation regarding the missing threads this morning at 09:37 in the Forum Feedback section.  Very few would have read this in connection with missing LD thread. So smiles all round.  HB.

[PJ_model_trains]

I agree 100% Phul007

 

I really do think Hornby wished they hadn't mentioned it at times. But there again I think at the time their reasons were no doubt genuine. I know there has been a lot of talk about getting Copyright but, Hornby know, on average, how long it takes to get the Copyright. This and the time that has passed makes me think they have it.

 

I honestly don't think HRMS anticipated the problems when they included signals and the other issues experienced this last twelve months, Windows 10 only being a small time issue but never the less another issue they have had to deal with.

 

Maybe they have LD now, maybe they would like to launch it, I cannot help but think they want to get the current issues sorted out before LD is launched. Although LD is separate to signalling in many ways, meaning possibly they could launch the system, the last thing they would want is issues found after launching LD when they are trying to deal with other more complex issues. The question would be, I think, would they be able to cope with more issues than they have at present, should they arise. If they couldn't cope with more issues, they are a small dedicated team, time would drag on and on and that would not do Hornby or the Hornby name any good at all.

 

We can if we wish gaze into our crystal balls but all we will probably see is a shadow of things to come, the same as we have seen for the last year or so. Until LD is actually launched, other than chat about it as we have been doing, there is little else we can do, 2012-2015 is a long time, I imagine they are as frustrated as we are. 

 

 

[Fishmanoz]

Not intending to be critical PJ but Copyright is the ownership of the Intellectual Property or IP rights to written works, including software incorporated into electronic hardware and not having a separate physical existence, and in most jurisdictions exists from inception without any need for registration or advice by the author (I think they US still requires the circled c copyright symbol to trigger copyright but I may be wrong) until many years after the author's death.

 

On the other hand, patents are IP rights to original ideas and designs granted by application to a patent office in many jurisdictions and must  not have been previously published (except to the jurisdiction for the purposes of proving the patent) and there must not be a previous patent in the area.  So they are secret until granted, at which point they are published, and involve a delay while searches are carried out to prove originality and go through a rigorous process while the patent is considered.  There are also secret patents never published but these are only considered in areas of national defence and security, not model railways.  Patents have 2 significant downsides.  First, in competitive hi tech areas where technology is moving ever more quickly, the delay associated with patent registration can often mean the pace of the market has made a patented idea obsolescent before it is granted.  The second is that publication when the patent is granted often triggers others to find ways around it that are equal to or better than the patented idea, meaning it can be better to just publish and be damned at the earliest opportunity and make your fortune while others scramble to catch up.  Jurisdictions often recognise patents granted in other jurisdictions but multiple applications are often made in jurisdictions relevant to a particular market.

 

Copyright and patent are the 2 predominant types of IP rights although there are others such as industrial designs and know how.

 

The longer the release of LD is delayed, the more I'm convinced Hornby should have just gone to market as soon as LD was working.  After all, the only real competition is not just alternative LD systems, which we all know aren't that hard to come up with, but LD systems integrated into computer controlled, programmable model railway systems, a much harder ask.

 

And my apologies to anyone who didn't want to know any of that in the first place but it does put the delay of LD release into context.

[PJ_model_trains]

Not intending to be critical... Ermmmm

For a minute I thought I was in the wrong post...

I was looking for Loco Detection, What is it and How Does it Work?

[PJ_model_trains]

I made one brief comment regarding Hornby knowing how long it takes to get copyright... probably 10% of my post content, it was a generalised statement...

 

I know there has been a lot of talk about getting Copyright but, Hornby know, on average, how long it takes to get the Copyright. This and the time that has passed makes me think they have it.

 

It seems we cannot make a short, general statement on here, without 'one person' always having to have his say.

 

The details that followed my post, were not asked for, they are not relavent to either the topic or my generalised statement as to whether, due to the time past, Hornby may have the copyright now.

 

Taking the size of the reply that followed and its content, and the items stated above, I feel the post regarding copyright should have therefore been in its own thread. It would have saved statements like 'Not intending to be critical PJ' and would have been posted in an acceptable manner for all forum users. These types of statement are not necessary. 

 

[Howbi]

@Fishmanoz......Your post regarding Copyright and Patent was most interesting and informative and may well prove to be highly relevant in the saga of Hornby's delay in rolling out LD.  HB.

[Fishmanoz]

@Fishmanoz......Your post regarding Copyright and Patent was most interesting and informative and may well prove to be highly relevant in the saga of Hornby's delay in rolling out LD.  HB.

 

Thanks HB.

[PJ_model_trains]

ITEM FOR DISCUSSION - LOCO DETECTION - POSITION OF A SENSOR

 

 

To keep it simple we will use a 4-6-2 Steam locomotive and a Class 37 diesel locomotive, both running on the same piece of track at different times.

 

First, imagine your 4-6-2 steam loco running along the track, speed could be anything from 10mph to 60mph. Your loco is approaching a signal and the signal is Red. 

 

Question-1 (consider this before reading the items below) - where would you put the sensor in the track, next to the signal, before or after the signal?  The train has to pass over the sensor to receive the command to Stop.

before the signal , you want the train to stop

 

Consider-1 stopping distance for your train

activate stop signal implement cv4 (can it be done any other way ?)

Consider-2 your steam train driver is near the back of the train

i consider this irrevalent , the signal is on red i want the train to stop.

Consider-3 now do the same run with your Class 37 diesel loco, driver of train is at the front.

same as 1

Consider-4  a signal should change when a train passes it!

why, the signal is at red

 

Question -  where would you put the sensor? Next to the signal, before or after the signal? 

before the signal you want the train to stop

 

Additional considerations

- where would you put the train tag on the steam train? (we said driver was at the back)

at the front the train must not pass a red signal ?

- where would you put the train tag on the Class 37? (we said driver was at the front)

same place.

 

 

 

Please feel free to add your own thoughts or even your own examples.

 

 

[RDS]

ITEM FOR DISCUSSION  ...

 

 

Why is this entire thread copied twice on this page?

Or have I missed something that has been added to it.

(Why do members use the Blue 'Quote' button)

[PJ_model_trains]

ITEM FOR DISCUSSION  ...

 

 

Why is this entire thread copied twice on this page?

Or have I missed something that has been added to it.

(Why do members use the Blue 'Quote' button)

 

I opened the item to edit and add a comment for magfan as he had picked it up from the start but had no reply...

But I caught the reply button by accident moving my laptop!!! The power was nearly gone and I needed to plug it into the mains!

[RDS]

OK magfan but the point I was making is that when such a long post is just copied, the fact that something may have been added (within the original coloured area) is extremely difficult to spot.  One of the best features of this forum is that we can all usually easily learn from other members' experiences and advice.

[hosh]

All the stuff about Copyright/Patents is fine.

 

We have been in the PC era for well over 25 years - let's face it, Hornby are running very, very late with LD!

 

Let's be thankful they don't run an actual railway company! LOL

[neil_duffin]

Forgive me for dredging this up again but I have a question. As the LD module is clearly not available or likely to be for the forseeable future, is there any wy of making some other detection module work with Rail Master. I am thinking of simple train present / absent optical or magnetic devices, not a full bar code reader.?

 

Anyone got any idea ?

 

NEIL

[RB51]

Hi Neil - the short answer is no. There has been a lot of conversation about this system and getting other kit to work with RM. Have you tried a forum search? There will be a lot of material come back if you do, but simply put Hornby's kit will only work with Hornby software. R-

[Chrissaf]

See my reply on the 1st May to virtually the same question:

https://www.hornby.com/uk-en/forum/automation-of-track/?p=1/#post-207534

.

[96RAF]

It will all depend upon what logic RM uses for LD as to whether any other kit will work in lieu.

 

If we knew what was driving LD from the software side then it may be possible to hook in alternative kit using the USB connection that is the only firm information we have about the way Hornby LD kit works.

Rob

[bargee61]

Like so many of you, I been waiting for LD for a loooong time.!  So, I sent an e-mail to Hornby customer care and asked them if they could give any indication when they might be bring Loco Detection to market.

The reply was as follows :

'Thank you for your email, unfortunately Loco Dectection is not planned for this year and we have no date for a release as yet.'

It was signed by a Simon Watkins.

So I guess it's time to breathe out!

[RB51]

Thank you Bargee61 - welcome to the forum. R-