What Heller can but Airfix can't

[steven_kerfoot]

A lot has been said about the lack of ship kits, both sail and modern, in the current Airfix range. In fact, this has been the case over the last decade. I can recall the Airfic catalogues of the late seventies and early eighties when the range of ships were considerable. Yet now they're gone.

 

Conversely, Heller, a company which has had close ties to Airfix in the past, probably sells more ships in it's range than ever. I'm looking for a certain kit so I checked the Heller website, the first time in a while, and I was amazed by how many kits have been brought back.

 

Lets be clear, many of their 1/400 ships are more recent molds than the 1/600 scale of Airfix, but they haven't just brought those back, they're issuing new kits too. This is in a scale which isn't fashionable and where some of their kits need aftermarket parts just to complete to a normal standard. The guns of the KGV for exaple are awful, the Airfix 1/600 kit is far better. Yet Heller sell theirs, Airfix don't.

 

The difference isn't just in the age of the kits, it's in something I have long said, commonality. In the Heller range you can build four battleships of a similar age from the French navy, one from the RN and six German capital ships. Add to that two RN carriers and a number of destroyers. In the past they also prduced a few German cruisers too.

 

Then there are the French ships of the 1960s-1980s of which there are two lcarriers, several cruisers, destroyers, frigates and submarines. Add a few ships which are in service now and you have quite a fleet. Twenty eight to be exact. Some aren't great kits, others have a few flaws but some are very nice. The difference is that most have been added over the years, not at just one time.

 

Then there are the sailing ships, of which there are twenty three. So over fifty ships of varying age and quality. So when I read that ship kits don't sell, I have to wonder how it is that Heller, what I alwasy think of as a lesser brand to Airfix, can have a very varied range but Airfix can't.

 

I agree that some of the very old kits Airfix has of ships aren't fit for the modern market, but I'd say five of the 1/600 certainly are. This core group including the Repulse, KGV class, Belfast, Prinz Eugen and Forrestal can be released and built upon. For example, issuing  various KGVs in different configurations, (with catapult, without, at the end of WW2 with more AA) retooling Repulse so that it can be used as Renown too, HMS Belfast retooled to be HMS Edinburgh. 

 

Then add a couple of ships a year to that group of comparative ships from the same era. I'd say much the same about the 1/350 modern ships, released in varous ways, and then with more modern RN ships, (Ocean, Bulwark, Albion, the various modern frigates) and in future the new carriers.

 

Reissue the sailing ships that are fit to do so too. Again, Heller can do this, why can't Airfix?

[DavidJC]

So if Heller are capturing the market there, why would Airfix risk so much in trying to compete?

 

Profitable or not, I would suggest that a businessman would look at that and think 'no point in us trying to release ships another manufacturer has already taken a risk on' and look at subjects other manufacturers haven't done, thereby capturing a market that way?

[Braille Dave]

Could it be that Heller's core market (France) is more ship-orientated than Airfix's core market (The UK)? We've already discussed ad nauseum why Airfix might not be producing ship kits, and in the end what the market is buying determines what is offered. I don't hold with the 'build it and they will come' argument. if that was the case Airfix would be building way more military vehicles than they do (based on the amount of Resin and White Metal kits that are available).

[peebeep]

Hugely sceptical about this, the company has had a couple of insolvencies to deal with over the last few years.

[steven_kerfoot]

Several points I would make to respond to the replies to my post. Firstly, the 1/600 range of ships prices versus the 1/400 ship prices would be considerably different, so the market wouldn't be the same. Lots of people can't afford to build a huge range of 1/350 or 1/400 ships, nor do they have the space, but they would be able to do so with a 1/600 range. 

 

I often hear that many people find the smaller parts on 1/700 ships too small, but that on the better 1/600 kits, these parts are that bit bigger which they like. In addition, while quite a number of firms make 1/700 kits, many are waterline, or with the option of a full hull. The 1/600 full hull kits by Airfix at their best, Repulse and KGV, are greatly favoured by those who aren't yet wanting or can't afford 1/400 or 1/350 ships, yet want something bigger and less fiddly than 1/700.

 

I think the idea that the UK isn't a good market for ship kits is unusual. Not only do may people have links to the navy, but with the historical importance of the RN, the market for ship kits in the UK is huge. Look at how well the 1/200 and 1/350 kits of the Hood have sold, or the Nelson and Rodney. Look at the way the Dreadnought has been issued in several different time periods by different firms. Even ships such as the Roberts and Abecrombie, which are obscure even to many naval enthusiasts. 

 

I'd say that given Heller's checkered past, if the present owners put so much faith in ship kits they must be selling. You don't look at how a business has failed in the past and simply repeat that in blind faith that this time it will be different. 

 

There is a natural market for ship kits in the UK and it is solely now being serviced by Tamiya, Trumpeter, Heller et al. The idea that these firms would produce British ships in considerable numbers and not have them aimed squarely at the UK market is quite wrong. Many of these kits are expensive, but sell nonetheless. A range of reasonably priced accurate kits in 1/600 scale would sell well if they were produced in a coherent fashion.

 

Honestly, if you want a period of time to concentrate on, the dreadnoughts and battlecruisers of WW1 are still poorly provided for and have some of the most attractive ships ever to sail. A series of ships, from the Dreadnought all the way through to the Repulse, would encompass dozens of ships for the RN alone. You then have the German, Japanese, US and Russian fleets, plus other smaller powers. These would be great sellers worldwide, and if properly priced would allow collectors to build up a fleet without having no space to display them, nor to take out a mortgage to afford them.

[Braille Dave]

'Lots of people can't afford to build a huge range of 1/350 or 1/400 ships, nor do they have the space....'- The same argument has been poised for 1:48 Aircraft and yet the range is going from strength to strength. Equally the R/C enthusiasts seem to have no issues with space, with their 1:100 and 1:72 ships. They also have a thriving aftermarket in white metal and resin. 

'....many people have links to the navy,...'- That is a specious argument frankly. The army has always been, and still is, much bigger than either RAF or rn, and yet the vast amount of kits are military aircraft. By your argument, the 40-odd million air journeys a year starting in the UK (and the constantly changing liveries) would ensure the popularity of civil aircraft, but they remain a niche market.

'There is a natural market for ship kits in the UK....'- Yet when you go into a model shop there is barely any Ship kits compared to the wealth of aircraft and vehicle kits. And what there is are largely Japanese, US or WW2 German. Any type 21s? Leander class? Tribal Class? County class cruisers?. And if there was, where are the aftermarket products, in white metal and resin?

 

 

'The idea that these firms would produce British ships in considerable numbers and not have them aimed squarely at the British market is quite wrong.'

They don't produce '...British ships in considerable numbers....' They produce a few famous British ships, that have world appeal, so are obviously not '...aimed squarely at the British market...' anyway.

 

'...the dreadnoughts and battlecruisers of WW1 are still poorly provided for...'- I wonder why?

'These would be great sellers, worldwide,....' Then why hasn't any firm produced them then? There are firms who make a living out of producing unusual and odd kits, but they haven't picked them up.

 

I'm sorry to pour water on your fire, but the facts are stark- what the market demands determines what will be offered. And a company on the long road, like Airfix is not going to risk money on uncertainties.

[ironsides]

Personally I would favour a range of 19th century Ironclads in 1/350ish.. any nationality...

😉

[Kenneth ONeill]

The other point to consider is that your average Frenchman is often "more patriotic" in terms of their choice of manufacturer of $product than your average Briton. I'm sure you can all think of examples to illustrate that point.

[steven_kerfoot]

'Lots of people can't afford to build a huge range of 1/350 or 1/400 ships, nor do they have the space....'- The same argument has been poised for 1:48 Aircraft and yet the range is going from strength to strength. Equally the R/C enthusiasts seem to have no issues with space, with their 1:100 and 1:72 ships. They also have a thriving aftermarket in white metal and resin. 

'....many people have links to the navy,...'- That is a specious argument frankly. The army has always been, and still is, much bigger than either RAF or rn, and yet the vast amount of kits are military aircraft. By your argument, the 40-odd million air journeys a year starting in the UK (and the constantly changing liveries) would ensure the popularity of civil aircraft, but they remain a niche market.

'There is a natural market for ship kits in the UK....'- Yet when you go into a model shop there is barely any Ship kits compared to the wealth of aircraft and vehicle kits. And what there is are largely Japanese, US or WW2 German. Any type 21s? Leander class? Tribal Class? County class cruisers?. And if there was, where are the aftermarket products, in white metal and resin?

 

 

'The idea that these firms would produce British ships in considerable numbers and not have them aimed squarely at the British market is quite wrong.'

They don't produce '...British ships in considerable numbers....' They produce a few famous British ships, that have world appeal, so are obviously not '...aimed squarely at the British market...' anyway.

 

'...the dreadnoughts and battlecruisers of WW1 are still poorly provided for...'- I wonder why?

'These would be great sellers, worldwide,....' Then why hasn't any firm produced them then? There are firms who make a living out of producing unusual and odd kits, but they haven't picked them up.

 

I'm sorry to pour water on your fire, but the facts are stark- what the market demands determines what will be offered. And a company on the long road, like Airfix is not going to risk money on uncertainties.

Not at all. I'm not saying I'm entirely right. Only someone who is wholly arrogant can't accept other people have their own opinions. However, most of what you say is opinion based, as are my comments. The fact is that until kits are produced, no one knows what will sell. For example, I cite the WW1 warships. For years Airfix produced what was at the time one of very few ships of that era, HMS Iron Duke. It wasn't the best model in the world, but I can't be the only one to have bought enough to represent the whole class. That was of a model well passed it's best, but it was the only one out there.

 

Eventually someone will make models of the ships of that era. My point is that if Airfix produced three a year on a range that was to continue for an extended period, it would be something no one else is doing. I said much the same in another post about modern/post-war RN ships, but in that case, because of their smaller size, I would produce them in 1/350 to compliment the Illustrious and Type 43s. Again, while there are a few ships already out there by other manufacturers, making a range which no one else is covering is the way to go.

 

I'm not saying make all of Airfix ship based. I'm saying that the reason Airfix ships were poor sellers over the last few decades was that the majority were old, tired and not up to modern standards. I recently built the 1/350 Illustrious and it was pretty good. I build aircraft, afvs and sci-fi models as well as ships. The reason I would love Airfix to make more ship kits is because their recent kits have been so exceptional. If they were to produce two kits in 1/350 scale over the next five years that would sell in huge number it should be the RN's last battleship HMS Vanguard and the new carrier Queen Elizabeth. The demand for a Vanguard kit would be massive. 

 

But a range of capital ships in 1/600 would sell well too, if they were up to the standard of the recent aircraft kits. As to model shops that you walk into and buy on the spot, I have bad news. They're great and I enjoy going to them, but I buy mostly online because it's cheaper. So when you see kits there, it's not representative of what people buy. I knew a guy who ran a model shop but who stopped stocking kits. It depends too much on the right person looking for a specific kit, the price now is prohibitive to those browsing and just feeling like this that or the other. I'm sure I'll be criticised for not supporting model shops, but if those who own them don't shop around online for items at the lowest price I'd be surprised.

 

I'd also say that interest in warships in this country is high. It is too in the other armed services, but again, the idea that UK modellers aren't buying the HMS Belfast, Hood, Repulse, etc. kits offered by other manufacturers is wrong. It's also a matter that the explosion in numbers of warships on offer by other manufacturers hs taken place comparitively recently. The last decade has seen ships which no one ever thought would be produced being sold. So the idea that manufacturers would have built models by now if they were going to is quite wrong.

 

We are seeing pre-dreadnoughts, monitors and cruisers in 1/350, a market which was almost completely dedicated to capital ships. I have no doubt more will follow. If a HMS Tiger or Lion isn't being looked designed in 1/350 I'd be amazed. If the market determined that a HMS Roberts was to be produced, I'd be amazed, just as I would the French battleship Danton, but yet I understand that both are selling pretty well.

 

Again, my point is that Airfix could produce a balanced range of kits on many subjects. Other companies do, so why can't they?

[Ratch]

 I think you make some valid points Steve. The problem for all us punters is that we can only relate to how we feel and not to hard statistics. Even for Airfix, their sales stats will be coloured by the age of their tools. I was very happy to see KGV, Repulse and Prinz Eugen re-issued recently (and took the opportunity to stock up), but I wouldn't like to guess how these performed in sales, and that will be the determining factor for Hornby. Obviously I hope the sales were encouraging. Enough at least for Hornby to consider investing in a new tool.

That said, the smaller range of product in this year's catalogue was/is disappointing for us punters. We can only hope that the Hornby Group stabilises and can once again look to producing a varied range of products including ships, figures and AFVs.

[steven_kerfoot]

 I think you make some valid points Steve. The problem for all us punters is that we can only relate to how we feel and not to hard statistics. Even for Airfix, their sales stats will be coloured by the age of their tools. I was very happy to see KGV, Repulse and Prinz Eugen re-issued recently (and took the opportunity to stock up), but I wouldn't like to guess how these performed in sales, and that will be the determining factor for Hornby. Obviously I hope the sales were encouraging. Enough at least for Hornby to consider investing in a new tool.

That said, the smaller range of product in this year's catalogue was/is disappointing for us punters. We can only hope that the Hornby Group stabilises and can once again look to producing a varied range of products including ships, figures and AFVs.

Thanks Ratch. The three kits you mentioned are probably the best of the 1/600 range, and would still be considered worthwhile builds today. I think there's a trick being missed though. With a bit of retooling and a few new parts, you could sell the KGV again as Duke of York with the catapult removed. With more work the Repulse could form the basis of a Renown. Even Prinz Eugen coule be one of the other ships in her class.

 

Airfix have been willing to do this with aircraft, but not so with their ships, which I never understand. If it is partly not wanting to deveop a whole new kit, at least doing this work on the existing models which are up to standard would be a good halway house. As to sales, that is always a tough one, and as I've said, where modelling is concerned it's a legacy matter. Produce a nice kit now, like the Seafire in 1/48, and you have a product for maybe twenty or so years. As others have sid, it's an investment, but the sales of these great kits of aircraft must have shown it is worth it. 

[Kenneth ONeill]

 I think you make some valid points Steve. The problem for all us punters is that we can only relate to how we feel and not to hard statistics. Even for Airfix, their sales stats will be coloured by the age of their tools. I was very happy to see KGV, Repulse and Prinz Eugen re-issued recently (and took the opportunity to stock up), but I wouldn't like to guess how these performed in sales, and that will be the determining factor for Hornby. Obviously I hope the sales were encouraging. Enough at least for Hornby to consider investing in a new tool.

That said, the smaller range of product in this year's catalogue was/is disappointing for us punters. We can only hope that the Hornby Group stabilises and can once again look to producing a varied range of products including ships, figures and AFVs.

Thanks Ratch. The three kits you mentioned are probably the best of the 1/600 range, and would still be considered worthwhile builds today. I think there's a trick being missed though. With a bit of retooling and a few new parts, you could sell the KGV again as Duke of York with the catapult removed. With more work the Repulse could form the basis of a Renown. Even Prinz Eugen coule be one of the other ships in her class.

 

Airfix have been willing to do this with aircraft, but not so with their ships, which I never understand. If it is partly not wanting to deveop a whole new kit, at least doing this work on the existing models which are up to standard would be a good halway house. As to sales, that is always a tough one, and as I've said, where modelling is concerned it's a legacy matter. Produce a nice kit now, like the Seafire in 1/48, and you have a product for maybe twenty or so years. As others have sid, it's an investment, but the sales of these great kits of aircraft must have shown it is worth it. 

I think that should be more "Airfix are now willing to do this with new tools for aircraft." Other than the EE Lightning I honestly can't think of a pre-2005 Airfix aircraft where the tool allows 2 significantly visually different variants to be built by swapping a single runner (or adding another one).

To compare like with like, ask yourself how much work would be needed to retool the old (1970s?) Blenheim IV as a Blenheim I: I reckon it would need new fuselage and engine cowl sprues as well as transparancies which would constitute replacing about 2/3 of the model. Similarly, your warship suggestions will (probably) require new deck mouldings.

[DavidJC]

There are some great posts with equally valid reasons in this thread and it's great to see.

 

What's being overlooked though, I think, is research. Where there are abundant planes and other subjects easily available for research, and actually quite small for a team of two or three to crawl over and take photos and measurements etc easily, how on earth do you research a walloping great subject like a ship that in all probability doesn't exist in real life anyway?

 

Plans are unlikely to exist any more, and for any subject to be taken seriously it would need to be accurate, well fitting and easy to build: gone are the days of lumps of plastic of vague representations and poor fit. Back in the day it didn't seem to matter - hulls were long and thin, turrets were in the right sort of place, even if ultimately it was an inaccurate model. Would people accept that these days?

 

So there's another consideration, and a crucial one: research and how would it be done to produce an acccurate model (of any scale?)

[Ratch]

I think Patrick may have a better insight as to what plans or drawings are available for ships, after all, he would need them for his scratchbuilds and may therefore be familiar with what is out there. The old Airfix Magazines often featured conversions of ships. Surely these were based on drawings or photographic evidence.

 

As for adding sprues or runners to enable variants of ships, I can see the attraction but I'd guess that it is easier to do this with the newly tooled aircraft (thanks to developments in tool design) than to re-hash a 30+ year old mould. That's not to say it's impossible, but would the result be desirable. It is however a half-way solution.

[jopres57]

 This may be a bit off message but there has been a lot of debate on the subject of 1/600 ships recently. Would it not be possible for us to encourage Airfix to re-introduce the Kitstarter idea with a ship, just to test how popular the idea is of having these models back. Hopefully there will be a bit more support this time.

[ironsides]

There are some great posts with equally valid reasons in this thread and it's great to see.

 

What's being overlooked though, I think, is research. Where there are abundant planes and other subjects easily available for research, and actually quite small for a team of two or three to crawl over and take photos and measurements etc easily, how on earth do you research a walloping great subject like a ship that in all probability doesn't exist in real life anyway?

 

Plans are unlikely to exist any more, and for any subject to be taken seriously it would need to be accurate, well fitting and easy to build: gone are the days of lumps of plastic of vague representations and poor fit. Back in the day it didn't seem to matter - hulls were long and thin, turrets were in the right sort of place, even if ultimately it was an inaccurate model. Would people accept that these days?

 

So there's another consideration, and a crucial one: research and how would it be done to produce an acccurate model (of any scale?)

The National Maritime Museum may well be the place to start, whenever I was researching Ironclads I used to make a special trip to go there, these days they seem to have a substantial online presence.....

just a few plans:

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections.html#!csearch;collectionReference=subject-90352;authority=subject-90352

😉

[peebeep]

Again, my point is that Airfix could produce a balanced range of kits on many subjects. Other companies do, so why can't they?

It's a simple business decision, nothing else. If in-house market analysis suggests that doing aircraft and not ships or other genres guarantees turnover then it's a no brainer. Airfix is within a larger group of companies and is probably not a huge organisation with large resources, whereas it's quite likely the other companies you refer to may have more resources and are better able to take any knocks from products that are slow selling. They may be in a better position to take a punt on a product that is slightly off-the-wall that could eoither sell by the shed load or bomb out completely.

[Ratch]

 This may be a bit off message but there has been a lot of debate on the subject of 1/600 ships recently. Would it not be possible for us to encourage Airfix to re-introduce the Kitstarter idea with a ship, just to test how popular the idea is of having these models back. Hopefully there will be a bit more support this time.

I could argue that Airfix have already done this when they re-issued Prinz Eugen, KGV & Repulse from 2011 to 2013. These, along with HMS Belfast, are the latest (albeit 1980s) tooled warships and well regarded. Sales figures would be a fair indicator IMHO.

[Simon Norton1707820138]

While I'm all for giving credit to Heller for re-releasing their ship range. I did notice a couple of things while browsing their website.

First their entire range is very francocentric, not many non-french subjects, so they are playing to their strengths and expoliting a niche market.

Secondly their prices are quite high. With a few exceptions (like the 1:48 aircraft) they are mostly one and a half to twice the price of an Airfix equivalent. The 1:400 battleships like Bismarck which were series 8 when Airfix boxed them are €55 (series 8 is about £30 now). The 1:100 HMS Victory, it's a great kit but at how many are they going to sell at €205?

A final thought. Heller has just been taken over so are in the position Airfix was ten years ago when Hornby took over. How may of the "new releases" are actually newly manufactured rather than being reboxings of what's in the warehouse?

[peebeep]

A final thought. Heller has just been taken over so are in the position Airfix was ten years ago when Hornby took over. How may of the "new releases" are actually newly manufactured rather than being reboxings of what's in the warehouse?

Airfix has been reinvented since the Hornby takeover, for some modellers this means they're not getting the products they would like to buy, but the company itself is probably in a much stronger position than pre-Hornby. Heller will also need to be reinvented if it is to stand any chance of survival. They have done some new products in recent years, the 1/72 Sherman is a fabulous kit and a Tiger I was in the pipeline, but never appeared. The recently released Ferguson tractor was an inspred choice of subject, it is an outstanding product and seems to be popular with modellers, but like Airfix they will need to build up a catalogue of new products to avoid disappearing altogether.

[Kenneth ONeill]

There are some great posts with equally valid reasons in this thread and it's great to see.

 

What's being overlooked though, I think, is research. Where there are abundant planes and other subjects easily available for research, and actually quite small for a team of two or three to crawl over and take photos and measurements etc easily, how on earth do you research a walloping great subject like a ship that in all probability doesn't exist in real life anyway?

 

Plans are unlikely to exist any more, and for any subject to be taken seriously it would need to be accurate, well fitting and easy to build: gone are the days of lumps of plastic of vague representations and poor fit. Back in the day it didn't seem to matter - hulls were long and thin, turrets were in the right sort of place, even if ultimately it was an inaccurate model. Would people accept that these days?

 

So there's another consideration, and a crucial one: research and how would it be done to produce an acccurate model (of any scale?)

Well, for a Clydeside built ship, most of the plans not destroyed in the Clydeside Blitz still exist in one of the BAe Shipbuilding, Scottish Maritime Museum, Glasow Riverside Museum (Museum of Transport) and Mitchell Library (Glasgow) archives; So do a substantial number of the fully detailed models built up on the test tank hulls.

For example, if I was asked to do a model of the HMS Howe (KGV class, pennant number 32) for Airfix, I'd start by taking the LIDIR to the GRM (qv) where there's a 1/72 scale model of her as commissioned and contacting the cited bodies to locate the builder's drawings.

[RussellE]

Well, for a Clydeside built ship, most of the plans not destroyed in the Clydeside Blitz still exist in one of the BAe Shipbuilding, Scottish Maritime Museum, Glasow Riverside Museum (Museum of Transport) and Mitchell Library (Glasgow) archives; So do a substantial number of the fully detailed models built up on the test tank hulls.

For example, if I was asked to do a model of the HMS Howe (KGV class, pennant number 32) for Airfix, I'd start by taking the LIDIR to the GRM (qv) where there's a 1/72 scale model of her as commissioned and contacting the cited bodies to locate the builder's drawings.

FYI, most of the significant RN vessels' plans are held by the National Maritime Museum (NMM).

These are the plans used to construct the vessels of the RN as far back as the mid 1700's. Access to these would eliminate the need to LIDAR any models. The challenge though, is that the NMM charge quite a hefty fee to secure copies of the plans. For a complete set of battleship plans from WWI or WWII you'd need to shell out around 1,000 GBP. How do I know this? Because I asked... 😬

The builder's model of HMS King George V is in the NMM, Greenwich and is 1/48 scale and around 5 metres long! If you ever get the chance, I highly recomend going there just to see this model! It is superb! 😎

[Sailorman]

Yes, the plans from the museum are expensive. I had once asked about the plans for HMS Terror.  They were far to expensive for a 1:600 model though they would have been is deal for a large scale build. I haven't seen the KGV model but I've seen a number at the science museum.  They have large number of big models. Well with a visit.

[DavidJC]

Hmm ok then, so plans are more widely available than I at first thought.

 

£1,000 is a great deal for an individual, but in terms of R&D for a major manufacturer, it probably won't be anything at all (comparatively speaking anyway). Nonetheless, there's still the other costs to get said ship into production and the question still remains - would it sell?

[Sailorman]

Hmm ok then, so plans are more widely available than I at first thought.

 

£1,000 is a great deal for an individual, but in terms of R&D for a major manufacturer, it probably won't be anything at all (comparatively speaking anyway). Nonetheless, there's still the other costs to get said ship into production and the question still remains - would it sell?

Hi Dave,

I've dug up the correspondence I had with the Maritime Museum back in 1996 when I was looking for plans of the Terror.  They had plans to 1:48 and 1:96.  Each plan at the time was £9.  The problem is the list contained 10 plans at 9 pounds and one at 13 giving a total of 103 pounds.  Together with Research and handling / postage and packing they would have cost £123..... and that was 20 years ago.  Moreover, I couldn't see the plans and had no idea whether they would have given me what I needed.  Perhaps they now have scans you can view in order to make a selection.