96RAF Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 Cheap as chips Ken. No doubt a bit of research would find similar types and more of the flat element type.These are notional 12Volt but available in other ratings and sizes, etcMicro cartridge elements.Edit:A quick Ali-Baba search comes up with literally hundreds of these suppliers and the cartridges can be built to your specified diam and length, voltage and wattage and temperature and they have variants suitable for use with solids, gas or liquids. The filler powder is Magnesium Oxide apparently if you are scraping one out. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowest Posted January 22, 2018 Author Share Posted January 22, 2018 Hi Robthese heater can glow red hot at times so needs to be well sealed and fire proof I have use fire clay to seal them when the old filling has fell outthe compound used goes right through the heater like a stick of roc. Like the flexible heater idea but might be a problem generating enough heat.Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted January 22, 2018 Share Posted January 22, 2018 You are right Ken, there are pictures of these heaters on line and they do glow red hot. /media/tinymce_upload/be262f80a1f63841b942dfeabbee926f.jpg The flexible ones can get hot enough, but I wonder about the heat going both ways - into the boiler and firing the track.Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowest Posted January 22, 2018 Author Share Posted January 22, 2018 Hi Rob thanks for the posting with the picture of the heater that says it all and why standard Hornby bodies will melt, even solder connections in the supper heater area can fall apart due to the heat and is one reason why Hornby had riveted the 2 wires to the printed board that switches on the red and green light system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowest Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 Now I need to make some kind of fixture for the boiler maybe using the holes in the kit frames which are the location points for the bogies.The drawing here is the type of thing I’m going for this would keep every thing tidy and simple./media/tinymce_upload/0abf5f2bb19da3486f10eaa323013c5b.jpg/media/tinymce_upload/9e229e1b037b5d8e35f9894da2cdb319.jpgThe chassis from the kit is pictured here and you can see the 2 large holes that give the location for the bogies these will be the point at which the boiler will be fitted /media/tinymce_upload/6f5011b937d12b1f17dfcb01e04d350b.jpgThe 2 fixings were made up and soldered to the bottom of the boiler. Once in position two 4 BA half nuts along with a PTFE washer will fix the boiler nicely in place/media/tinymce_upload/01216e39db7607505a13cf0fb81cca25.jpgThis picture shows the threaded studs in the bottom of the chassis.Next I will make up all the other parts that hold the boiler in place to see how it looks./media/tinymce_upload/b843ff8fc73e784d512d123d94b39253.jpgI have just bought a Lord Nelson tender off the internet as its nice to have a model that you can see and hold that you are trying to make and it looks nice to me runs well but I have no engine for it yet./media/tinymce_upload/38c3f53a522391b3345d82de9bb25bbc.jpgThe only thing is and someone must have the answer why has the coal run into the next compartment on the top near to the air tanks?Answers please./media/tinymce_upload/438dc65c4ff6c6b63667879d66836d47.jpgits just that if this area was an extra space for coal I could have made the boiler even bigger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted January 23, 2018 Share Posted January 23, 2018 I thought it was wrong KenThis image of the preserved loco shows the space empty../media/tinymce_upload/6ad084d20748061cf22f44842c12e9d4.jpg Yet this one has got coal in it... /media/tinymce_upload/5c033251ce25ead019a2a6fff1d692d0.jpg I also found a GA for the tender from Grace's Guide but its not very clear. This one is a bit better but still no use to determine the use of that space unless there is an undercut to that partition which allows coal to fall through.. Caiptean will likely know the pucka gen him being a Southern Railway chap..Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowest Posted January 23, 2018 Author Share Posted January 23, 2018 Hi RobThanks for the information it looks like your right the large plate that devides the coal space has a gap at the bottom of it which might allow the coal forward for use. If I had looked into this before I started the boiler I could have made the largest part of the boiler 10 mm longer never mind lets see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowest Posted January 24, 2018 Author Share Posted January 24, 2018 Having the 4 frames cut out as blanks in brass strip I then soldered them together in pairs./media/tinymce_upload/ebb7c85037054572b9f8d85df7197e8d.jpgSetting the now pair of frames up in the mill I can now mill out the frames for the tender wheels axle boxes.The milling out doesn't take long it’s the setting up and marking that takes the time.when running my live steam engines i tend to use WD40 for lubricating these small axle boxes as it cleans and lubricates these moving parts and helps with the conductivity./media/tinymce_upload/8e095c81713bbfd031cadfd217aef58a.jpgYou can if you wanted to use the Hornby brass frames if you cut them up and use an over lapping joints to solder them together or just file them out of some brass.As you know this Lord Nelson tender has 2 bogie units and a total of 8 wheels so a bit more work than a 6 wheel tender.The frames were unsoldered and cleaned up and marked as pairs when you think each railway company made steam engines and each one was hand made it took thousands of skilled men to manufacture the parts there was some automation but most parts were hand made and fitted each engine turned out better than a Rolls Royce. I’m not claming that this engine will be of such high quality but if it steams and runs that will be great for me.All of the work carried out at Marconi’s had an inspection team that would check out the quality of the work going through the factory the smallest of parts would have an inspection stamp and relative paper work to accompany the item through the factory. If there’s a problem with a part it could be traced back to the inspector and the man that made it luckily I have no one looking over my shoulder but having said that I do as RAF Rob pops in from time to time picking up on poor engineering practices on items along the way with others out there that might say he’s got that bit wrong.I’m getting off the point which is tenders./media/tinymce_upload/00a7cf1aec6e1ba4c804fc9796e8110e.jpg Look closely at the tender wheels in this picture and as some of you live steam owners might know a change in the design of these wheels took place during the production run.The set of wheels on the left in the picture have a black plastic centre insulator where as the wheels on the right have a larger axle section and the insulator is made of Porcelain.This change came about because under certain conditions the wheels can get very hot from the amount of currant they must pass and so the plastic centre did melt of become loose. The new design centres are great and handle any heating up of the wheels and axles the only problem and its happened to me is don’t let them roll off the table and hit a tiled floor as this like a china cut can smash this tiny insulator./media/tinymce_upload/8a0dd20048901b2b134cc9e8ce9bee9d.jpgWith the plastic frame Stretcher made it is hoped that no heat problems will occur but time will tell Below are all the major parts all I need to do is mark out the fixing holes and the wire connection holes and some trial fits can be carried out to check the running height of the tender ./media/tinymce_upload/afbfb2cf15a9368c3134dec9b9eb1773.jpgI will keep the wheels as they are and try some test runs with the tender and once satisfied that it works ok then I will disassemble the wheels and machine them out and fix some spokes to them so they look correct for the model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowest Posted January 27, 2018 Author Share Posted January 27, 2018 I've been keeping up with Hornby engine sheds Lord Nelson that they are building the history of the engine and take from that page I now learn that Si Francis Dake was in an accident and rebuilt why is it I seem to pick the engine that was in and accident I had this with the GER S69 job which was it that case a total right off this engine was not and rebuilt read on. From engine shedBuilt at Eastleigh in May 1928, 851 Sir Francis Drake entered traffic at Nine Elms, before moving to Stewarts Lane in June 1932. In February 1940, Sir Francis Drake returned to Nine Elms before heading south to Bournemouth in February 1943. An accident at Byfleet in December 1946 led to a major rebuild prior to a move to Eastleigh in January 1949, from where the locomotive was withdrawn in December 1961. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowest Posted January 28, 2018 Author Share Posted January 28, 2018 After a few trial fits with the bogies in place in the chassis it was discovered that the ride height of the chassis was much to great. It turned out that looking at an A4 tender and the LN tender back to back the buffers on the LN were about 8 mm too high so to reduce this work was needed to get the chassis lower so that the buffers would be more in line with the A4 tender. /media/tinymce_upload/52bb6fcca10bbbdbe1b4db0d9631c94a.jpgBy disassembling the wheels from the axles these could then be set up in the lathe and the out side tyre can be turned down by just under a millimetre and while doing this job it made sense to counter bore the front face of the wheels so that a spoke panel can be pressed into the wheel./media/tinymce_upload/74946d3450b7702cbeb51b115debc116.jpg/media/tinymce_upload/06f441da494d080a3bdb59fbcfff11de.jpgYou can see from the picture here the standard Hornby tender wheel on the right and the same wheel after the machining process on the left. This was carried out on all 8 wheels./media/tinymce_upload/9be92d109ef45d34b01e8652b5e2f7e1.jpgWith all 8 wheels finished with the centres in place they could be pressed back onto the axles and the gauge check out. Later if all works out ok at the end of the job they will be painted./media/tinymce_upload/86165c591d45f349df1dbdbe6ff9ad95.jpgBefore the wheels can be fitted in the bogie frames the frames need there pickups fitted. As the wheel centres were different between the LN and the A4 tenders and I didn’t feel like making new ones for this tender I cut up the Hornby pickups and fix them to the brass frames with 1.2 mm screws. A wire would be fixed in the centre of the frames between the 2 wheels to take the power from these frames up in side the tender to power the heater and supper heater in the engine./media/tinymce_upload/4ff8ff81e4c625bb0c381f20a5fd871c.jpgThe new wheels sets were then fitted into the frames and a couple of brass strips were made up to fixed the wheels and axles in place these strip can be removed for servicing as they had 3 screws to each strip./media/tinymce_upload/ceb5cf7bd4ad80d85bf4107a46f4c01c.jpgWith both the bogies built the outside frames from the kit needed fixing in some way to the bogies. This was achieved by making up some brackets and soldering them to the kit frames and using a couple of screws through the brackets into the blue plastic insulator this would look ok and stop any shorts to the power from the wheels if enough gap was left between the wheels and kit frames./media/tinymce_upload/348cb3e1a377244570e7e5e6a60e21d7.jpg/media/tinymce_upload/3fa1618e6d91ca893aedf496288a5b0f.jpgSome small solder tags and silicon wire completed the wiring as you can see here./media/tinymce_upload/8f52a0c5b6ff758c0510053ec3b0901e.jpgThe wheels and bogies plus wires fitted in the chassis /media/tinymce_upload/0160800117dc7cbd86eac46d0ec41917.jpg/media/tinymce_upload/cdcc86ef74c3d1d361431fdc72f124e7.jpgOne idea is to add a panel of printed board to the top of the chassis so that the wires can be connected to a point that will enable the power to run from the back to the front of the tender chassis. This way all the connections can be picked up at different points to keep it neat and tidy./media/tinymce_upload/e7fc81828e554612fc9ceb79ddaddfb8.jpgWith all this work finishes and other changes to the chassis and boiler fixing points it was set back on the track with the A4 tender and the buffer height checked this time things looked to be going in the right direction just some small adjustment to the boiler fixing nuts and it should be just right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 Good progress Ken.Running soon with its own boiler.Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowest Posted January 28, 2018 Author Share Posted January 28, 2018 yes Rob I did push the tender round the track and it runs fine over points and crossings what going to happen in steam is the thing?Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted January 28, 2018 Share Posted January 28, 2018 I’m just wondering about expansion of the boiler and its mounting points and any affect on the rest of it. May need a slot in the chassis for one stud to slide in. Then there’s my old chestnut, stress raisers in the corner of the boiler step. Some nice fixes in that tender though to accommodate those twin bogies.Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowest Posted January 28, 2018 Author Share Posted January 28, 2018 There's my ministry inspector checking up on me as to what can happen with stress building up in sharp corners and heating up and cooling down some of us and Rob will know this any way that cracks will start in square holes as they found out with the Commet crash and the libity ships in the 1940s that also developed cracks around the cargo hatch in the deck. It was said that one ship in a storm broke in half.when making the boiler I did put a radius in the corner of the step section which is not that clear if you zoom in but the point about the expansion of the boiler having one free fixing is a point to take on board as most large loco boilers were only fixed at the smoke box end and the fire box end was left sitting on L shaped brackets that could let the boiler slide forwards and backwards on the frames as and when it expands and contracts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowest Posted January 28, 2018 Author Share Posted January 28, 2018 /media/tinymce_upload/d11146295c6dad3ee23b03d581b91722.jpgi found this picture and it shows the L shape bracket at the fire box end this just sat on top of the frames to let the boiler move as it heated up or cool down Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 I can see the radius in the corner very clearly Ken and I know your boilers are over engineered for the pressures involved so no danger of a blow out. The more I look the more I see. Its all in the details. Those bogies are a work of art and will make my 00 Land Rover chassis look like a right bodge job. Lots of things anchor one end and allow the other end to slide for expansion. Bridges, stairs. Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowest Posted January 29, 2018 Author Share Posted January 29, 2018 Rob like the sound of your Land Rover chassis in 00 are we talking cars?Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted January 29, 2018 Share Posted January 29, 2018 Its the Oxford Road/Rail version with the flip out rail wheels. I had reckoned on driving the road wheels and picking up from the rail wheels, but not got too far with it yet. Basic chassis could be brass strip with the micro motor driving the road wheel axles via an elastic band. Heres a picture of a similar chassis. The motors I have are in the picture. /media/tinymce_upload/621d91d61ab41829f5709cf9b01e9f11.png Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowest Posted January 29, 2018 Author Share Posted January 29, 2018 What a great idea that would look good on any ones railway with some very small parts to make there Rob you must keep us posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowest Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 Lots of fiddly bits that need completing before we can finish the tender and test it out.First was to make some fixing points so that the body of the tender can be removed for servicing should things need to be worked on at a later date. /media/tinymce_upload/3f1fae9ad44c519a5ee0dee4527ada6c.jpg/media/tinymce_upload/b3783103d714e3ef2d94f5ed9e1fb7a2.jpgThe red arrows mark the 3 fixing screws one at the rear of the tender and 2 at the front ether side of the frames./media/tinymce_upload/75eadbb1a4e43d5ae81e66bcf4ef2bf3.jpgNow happy that the body fitted alright some of the other parts of the tender can now be built.As I may have said before the power rails to connect the bogie wiring would be a section of printed board fitted on top of the chassis running from front to back the red wires from the bogies will be connected to this Printed Board./media/tinymce_upload/dc3475d5e826955eb936e93460f76f38.jpgThe picture here shows the printed board and the main power connections at the front with 2 pins soldered to the PCB these 2 pins will take the power from the tender to the engine.Also in the picture are the 2 connectors the top one is how it looks finished the bottom one shows the connector and wire before the sleeving is added/media/tinymce_upload/bbe36fa4ef34c657b3583ff98673facd.jpgWhen the engine and the tender are connected together the 2 wires will be like on my other engines and look like water and brake pipes.By using this type of connection removing the connections for servicing is a little better and these connection can take a lot more than 6 Amps so should never need replacing.At the other end of the PCB is the flickering LED that provides the light for the oil lamp fitted to the rear panel of the tender body.I have covered how the little assembly is made before so will leave the detail of construction but for those that want to see how to make it look at the B15/S69 construction in the forum./media/tinymce_upload/78cb0a6609731c557c45acae7b3c2173.jpgThis small printed board carries all the components to drive the lamp./media/tinymce_upload/2aaf3b096f2a8da84a17f3470ec6a1b5.jpgA bracket was soldered to the copper track of the main power printed board and to this the lamp board was fixed with 2 screws this will make one of the two connections to drive the LED. The hole above the 2 screws is for the light from the red LED to shine through.The oil lamp has a hole drilled through it and a fibre optic cable fixed in place so that it holds the lamp onto the back panel of the tender and therefore links to the inside to pick up the light from the flickering LED./media/tinymce_upload/4bd3effc2ed9ed4534c0d061d536d6a1.jpgThe flickering red LED needs to be painted black all but the front or as I have covered in heat shrink sleeving this is to stop the light from showing under the tender at night./media/tinymce_upload/c5b33b73d3a46601d65802d67bbbca55.jpgThe black wire in the picture will be connected to a tag and then screwed to the other copper track on the power PCB.You might just make out the black sleeving covering the LED in this picture./media/tinymce_upload/e2d635b78e9617c2d5eb52c2cc30fca6.jpgWith a couple of test wires connected the small light can be assembled to the chassis to see what it looks like./media/tinymce_upload/94d8b591526d73a0a23c781b28547aff.jpgWith out the body in place you can see the light showing through the printed board. /media/tinymce_upload/7fc125f5d52ffe8913cb175ec42c9853.jpgAnd when the body is fitted the light now shows on the lamp lens what you can not see from these pictures is that this red LED is flickering and when looking at the oil lamp on the tender it looks as if it is a real oil lamp flicking away.Just he main steam pipe to sort out and then try some tests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 Brilliant Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowest Posted February 2, 2018 Author Share Posted February 2, 2018 Hi Roblooked up some YouTube video of the Land Rover running on rails and it looks great the tyres of the Land Rover still do the driving I see the rail wheels just keep the car on the track never seen this before would'nt wont to try it with my Land Rover.as for the light on the tender a little time back I built a West Country class engine and as before fitted the LED light idea in the tender but never looked to close at the LED I was using as it should have been just a plain LED but you guessed it I put the wrong one in and as the lighting on these engines was all electric having a steam turbine I looks like the bulb loose as if flickers away.Dad told me of a distant signal that had an oil lamp fitted in it and this signal was high off the ground and this old system of lighting had a bi metal strip in the lid with 2 wires running back to the signal box connected to a meter in a Woden box so that if the lamp went out the signalman would get a Lamp Out on his indicator. Anyway this winters windy night the lamp went out on this signal and off Dad went to check it out which was a long walk to the signal up he climbed and with some matches re lite the lamp and walked back to the signal box only to find out it had gone out again 3 times he went to this signal boy was he glad when all electric signals came in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted February 2, 2018 Share Posted February 2, 2018 We might moan about technology today but it sure does have some advantages over the old ways.Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowest Posted February 3, 2018 Author Share Posted February 3, 2018 If you want to see how to make the flashing oil lamp you can see it in more detail in the live steam forum under the B12 on page 23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gowest Posted February 5, 2018 Author Share Posted February 5, 2018 /media/tinymce_upload/cdc4cdba6b27740cc44568d4cc9432c6.jpgWith the steam out let pipe completed and the screw clamping termination points in the picture for the bogie wiring completed it was time for some testing with the new tender./media/tinymce_upload/818b5688eb69a8d112bc38e9d0189f03.jpg The bogie sets of wheels look close together in this picture but as the amount of movement is very small it should not be a problem./media/tinymce_upload/14574d043ba40d88e4fbe6e9c2563518.jpgThe relative connections were made between the engine and tender and the tender filled with water, on the engine all the oiling points were carried out and the engine left to raise steam. Some steam was achieved after a short period of time but was lost through the tend safety valve which needed resetting to a higher pressure./media/tinymce_upload/6c716f6240d08b400314ae5b98462a27.jpgOnce these small problems were over come the engine was left to steam up once more.Things looked to be going ok but there did not seem to be enough steam being generated to drive the engine?Was this a recurrence of Maunsell problems of poor steaming in the early days of the Lord Nelson class coming back to haunt us.Why was it that after all this work this engine was not going to be all I thought it might be. Was the tender boiler to large a mass for the heater to make the required amount of steam? Was there too much surface area to this boiler so that the heat generated was being lost to the surrounding environment ? All these points needed to be looked into if this engine was going to be a runner./media/tinymce_upload/5415f7eef84d6511eb009f53e1ca8c04.jpgThen the rear lamp printed board in the tender burst into flames, could things get any worse the answer is yes I gave the engine a push to see if it would run and a second fire appeared this time between the tender and the engine it was the spring armoured sleeve covering the silicon water pipe which lit up like an electric fire element burning the pipe (see picture) in seconds which then popped as the steam pressure escaped not a very good start to report back.MOD’s1. Find the short in the tender body and rectify plus remake the connecting water pipe2. Remake the tender oil lamp PCB and seal with Araldite3. Lag the tender boiler to retain the heat.Once the above has been done out new tests can be carried out watch this space! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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