Lord Nelson

[gowest]

A change to the Hornby design for the last set of drivers. I had an idea to make these a floating pair the reason being that this set of wheels have rubber tyres on and to help these wheel keep good contact with the rails the chassis was to have a machined box area here and a corresponding brass block made to fit.This block will carry the axle and be fixed in place by a spring strip fixed in a machined slot with a screw in the chassis and screwed at the other end to the new axle block.

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Here is the parts to this new idea of a suspension unit and with it fitted in place

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With all the wheels in place and if it stands the other way up you can just make out the movement of the wheels as you push down on the last set.

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With the bearings made and the wheels in place next are the cylinders and there location and it looks like the Hornby position will be to close to the first set of drivers by about 10 mm this means some changes to come to the front end of the chassis but first this assembly needs taking apart to see what condition its in.

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The front valve face was badly worn and this assembly was put back together with gasket glue which is wrong and can block the very small steam passages.All these parts were overhauled and new piston rings fitted.

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Just by laying the chassis and wheels on the drawing and adding a blue line on the picture you can see that the centre of the flying Scotsman brass cylinders comes to the end of the Lord Nelson.The LNER cross heads also look as if they can be passed off as Southern ones but will see if the kit ones can be fitted..

[gowest]

Taking a few measurements leads me to believe that the piston rods on Lord Nelson are longer than the A3 so to make the engine look right I need to extend the chassis by about 5 to 6 mm this will then put the cylinders in the correct place with the drawings./media/tinymce_upload/2cfcd78774412a1f9e17bbdb587c5b58.jpg

The cross heads are another change that I might carry out it will mean making up new piston rods but will build up the parts of the cross heads and the valve gear and see how it looks.

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The chassis needs some changes as the A4 chassis is too long and will protrude beyond the cab floor on the LN so this section as in the picture was cut off.

Now back in the work shop a new extension to the front of the chassis was made from a bit of brass bar with holes and threads to pick up on the Hornby front end, and the cylinder assembly

This if it works out as said will put the cylinders in the correct location for Lord Nelson frames.

see the drawing here.

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The new parts ready to screw in place and then try the cylinders in position and hope I have it right if not re make the parts this way once its correct moving on will not be a problem.

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Here are all the main parts to the new assembly note the small insulator this is a barrier to reduce the heat transfer from the cylinders to the frames.

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Now with the extension fixed in place with its 2 screws the cylinders can be fitted of cause I can see other problems to come one will be the valve drive rod this will be too short and a new one will have to be made. 

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Looking at this picture you can see the new part at the front of the chassis but also note that the rear end is now shorter than it was and the part that had the weight and safety valve has gone so no longer a Flying Scotsman.

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Now looking at the engine with the buffers and running boards in place laying the engine on the drawing the cylinders and the wheels look to be inline now and I can press on with the rest of the build.

Just off the top of this picture is the screw that give access to the oil tank and as this doubles for the way steam leaves the engine as in the full size engine it needs to be in the centre of the locos chimney but I think it is going to be in the wrong place but might just get away with it as one of the last mod’s to these engines was to change the blast pipe and fit a much larger chimney but we will see when we get to that part still lots more to do.

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Still lots to think about as we start to put the engine back together 

[96RAF]

Absolute magic Ken, good progress so far.

Rob

[gowest]

Rob so far is right I have now seen a problem with the valve rod drive shaft so must try a couple of ideas out.

ken

[gowest]

 

I think they had a few problems the first time around looks like what I thought was going to be an easy build just might not be.

[gowest]

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You can see from this picture I have cut the copper pipe that takes the steam from the brass safety valve to the supper heater this is because that if left the length it was it will stick out the back of the cab so will be joined later with a brass sleeve when its new location can be worked out, and that’s the problem at the moment as I will explain.

On a previous posting I touched on the fact that a problem or two has come up this is expected and some jobs i undertake tend not to go according to plan.

The problem is the Lord Nelson loco is shorter than the A3 as said so by using the Hornby parts things have to be shoe horned into a smaller space and as things were going all looked to be going well but then the safety valve will end up in the cab not what I wanted as this area on other engines I have built is for the crew.

In the picture you can see what I mean I’ve drawn the cab in place looking side on and you can see the safety valve in the window and with out extra pipe work the steam from here will fill the cab not good.

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As the cylinders are further along the frames for LN than the A3 in stead of making a longer valve drive shaft as I was going to it might be possible with some hacking and filing to move the servo motor assembly along the frames which could leave more room for the safety valve at the rear end of the chassis.

For fellow live steam operators most of these parts will be familiar to you and moving all the valve shaft and bits nearer the cylinders now means the small gear assembly that provides the drive from the wheels will be lost as things are now out of alignment. I have put the picture of the part that will have to change if things are to work properly and by looking at the drawing you might get some idea what is needed.

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So lets grab the bull by the horns and see what turns up it will mean cutting a longer slot in the bottom of the chassis and drilling new fixing holes for the servo frame motor.

[96RAF]

Ken

Can you extend the 4th gear shaft to regain mesh

or 

can you use your vertical servo pack per S69

if so

would this give room to mount the safety valve horizontal behind the super-heater.

Rob

[gowest]

Very good idea Rob about the S69 servo why didn't I think of that but will try your first idea and change the drive unit this looks to be the easiest way forward.

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[RB51]

On a previous posting I touched on the fact that a problem or two has come up this is expected and some jobs i undertake tend not to go according to plan.

 

Applies to just about everything I touch Ken - you are masterful in my eyes. R-

[gowest]

Thanks for those kind words I keep telling my self it's got to be an easier job than the GER engine which is still running very well.

when stacking the wood in the shed for Christmas in the rain did I get wet it remindered me of years ago when me and my mate then we were about 12 years old would cycle to Brentwood bank this was a great place to see steam engines pulling hard to get to Shenfield.

This is a cutting and a long drag engines that stopped at Brentwood station had a job from a standing start to go up the hill there was a banker at Brentwood to help push from behind and must have pictures of the engines pulling hard on this day I'm thinking of standing by the track the sight and noise steam and smoke was a great event but this engine never made it it stopped with steam coming out of piston seals and pipe work the driver ran back a few yards the fireman shoved more coal on and opened up the blower full and waited it wasn't long before the safety valve lifted and a new attempt on the bank was made and this time it looked good the engine came passed the point at which it had stopped previous and carried on passed us as we laught at this event but little did the fireman was standing by with the hose and as he went by gave us both a good soaking I can still see the look on his face as he was the one laughing now.

no doubt you can go to the same point now but the new electrics will make it look so easy how times have changes.

[gowest]

Well Rob after some milling and filing it looks like the safety valve will fit, there is just enough space to squeeze it in.

The idea will be to make up some type of manifold unit to take exhaust steam to the valves on top of the boiler see drawing the new part is marked out in red lines.

 

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The small gear assembly that lives between the wheels and takes the drive from the middle axle to the valve gear shaft is as Rob suggested, that the shaft and its gear are extended it will all work fine and by sticking to this it will just be a modified Hornby parts not too many of my own design and might give some inspiration to others to have a go.

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If you have ever run your live steam and the timing has moved it just might be this part as the gears sometime slip on there shafts I have had 3 engines with this problem and drilled a hole in the shaft and pined the gear in place.

This part is in the lathe and needs Finishing.

But lets look at where we are now the slot in the chassis has been lengthened to accommodate this new gear assembly you can see the black gear just through the new slot I made.

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Now looking at the rear end of the chassis you can see the section of chassis that was cut away to let the safety valve sit in this area. And space for the pipe connection made from the tender to the safety valve bottom connection.

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Looking down on the rear end shows the valve sitting in place a connection will have to be made to the top of this unit as steam pops out of the 2 small hole you can see in the top and will need to be ducted to the out side via the engines own safety valves.

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Here I’ve put the back end of the boiler in position this item I’m slowly going off as it looks just an over size lump of lead and one made of brass sheet would be much neater and the fittings to the back head could be made a bit finer.

I don’t know why the drivers turned up its still got a way to go but like all good drivers he’s brought his tea.

I once as a small boy in the winter time when having a ride on a steam engine up Stratford way was offered a cup tea from one of these enamel containers and it was really undrinkable not like mums tea but later as dad and the driver and fireman were laughing found out it had rum in it ! fancy giving that to an 11 year old, god knows what was in the sandwiches. They were hard men in them days.

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A look at the back of the boiler and you might just see the bottom part of the Hornby safety valve.

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The last picture shows the servo motor its gear train the safety valve and its copper pipe that can now be connected to the copper pipe coming from the supper heater and Fred still waiting to have a go at driving this new engine.

[96RAF]

Brilliant Ken.

Sometimes it just takes a hint as to what my be possible then as usual you work out the details in no time.

You must have been working the night shift on this one the progress you have made.

I agree the kit boiler is a bit of a lump, not up to your normal end product.

I can see this one running trials by Xmas.

Rob

[gowest]

Hi Rob 

does seem to be picking up a bit now did wonder if I spent to much time going round the same parts here but with your input made a large leap forward going over to daughters for dinner today but will pop in the work shop and try to finish the gear assembly.

next will be the connecting rods and could then try a test run on compressed air.

Ken

[gowest]

Now the small gear train is finished and here are a few pictures of it.

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The assembly was made as follows from left to right ….. First you can see the 2 screws these hold the gear on to the shaft by screwing into the disc like flange on the drive shaftThen this now longer drive shaft has a very small hole drilled through it to take a pin.Next comes the body its self, on the other end of the body is the brass tail shaft support which locates into the body and fixed with a single screw.After the screw is the drive pin which the final gear will be pressed onto the gear now has a slot cut in it to take the pin location.

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The support extension which is a press fit into the body of the gear assembly and fixed in place by a screw this should stop any movement when these components start to get hot.

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The large bevel gear that gets its drive from the smaller gear on the centre axle of the main drivers not shown here.

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All the above now fitted together 

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The pin tapped in place on the shaft with a small hammer for a good tight fit

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Finally the small gear pressed onto the shaft so that the drive pin locates into the gear

With the unit finished ready to fit into the engine another part complete but until i see it all working right we might be back to make some changes.

[96RAF]

I could just about manage to assemble that if it was at the size in the pictures but at 00 life size I would struggle.

Keep at it Ken.

[2e0dtoeric]

Amazing work, GW. I said previously I wouldn't know where to start!

[gowest]

I'm sure you all have your own skills that are as good or better than mine I to find it hard some times to see these small parts let alone pick them up when you fingers like half a pound of sausages. When some one builds an N gauge live steam then your talking.

Ken

[96RAF]

When you get really small a new set of principles apply, like having the gas burner in the tender firing into a simplified two cell boiler in the loco. Top part held the water and the bottom part was the flue.

http://www.zen98812.zen.co.uk/steam.html

 

I would think at those scales a steam turbine would be easier than pistons.

 

Mind you if you read the whole site this guy did cheat in some of his photos using Ho models and blown up pictures of pencils to fake the scale.

 

Rob

[2e0dtoeric]

N gauge live steam was mooted, a long time back, when N was in it's infancy, and the N gauge mag was a b+w folded A6 sheet! The guy was trying for 'crowd-funding' before crowd fundng was invented, to get his project off the ground. No idea what became of it or how far he got. If I recall, his caption title was Psssst!

(Perhaps he was?)

[gowest]

did have quick search for n gauge steam and found one on you tube very small I think a narrow gauge 0-4-0 tank and no I don't think I'll try to build one.

i have enough trouble with 00 there's been some programs on channel 5 about Brunel and his broad gauge now that would be a good scale to model

[96RAF]

I found plenty of narrow gauge live steam Ken.

009 loco sized bodies running on N gauge track.

Rob

[gowest]

Rob it's hard to believe it can be done that small what clever people they are if I ever get back on 7 1/4 gauge I should be easyer to see when I drop parts on the floor my work shop is like the Burmuda triangle once is hit the floor that's it gone for good I keep saying I'll clean it up?

[96RAF]

Ken I know what you mean about things hitting the floor never to be seen again. My train room has a nice wood laminate floor and that makes dropped items disappear until next sweep out.

 

The bench isnt much better. I have been looking for a motor / gearbox I put somewhere safe for ages. I know its on there somewhere hiding in plain sight.

 

Rob

 

[gowest]

I touched on this earlier and this is the problem with the piston rods, on the Lord Nelson class they appear to be longer by about 4 or 5 mm I have sent off for some stainless steel rod to remake these piston rods but it has not arrived yet must be the Christmas rush but in the mean time did think that they might just be made out of the Hornby A4 pistons.

The reason behind this idea is that the pistons on the A4 are longer than the A3 and also the piston rod diameter on the A4 is also slightly larger but all these dimensions can be corrected in the lathe so that the new piston rod might just fit the A3 piston and therefore be the right size for the Lord Nelson class this increase in piston rod length is also required to put the cross heads in the right place. See the drawings and pictures for a clearer idea.

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looking at the picture above you can see that there is a big difference in the piston head length this relates to the cylinders on the A4 Hornby locos being longer to accommodate these longer pistons.

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As the A4 pistons has a centre hole marked out it should be easy to pick up on this to drill a fresh hole and thread it 1.2mm for the screw that holds the piston on the end of the rod.

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The last picture shows the break down of the parts that go to make this very involved little assemble and just how much work Hornby put into these very small steam engines and congratulations on a job well done they are true marvels of engineering.

[96RAF]

Ken

What do you use to lock those threaded parts together.

I presume something that resists hot and wet (steam).

It wouldn't do for them to come loose in use.

Rob