The son of Triangman Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 I agree GNR Gordon, physical bricks and mortar shopping is a dying thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NWR-Gordon-4 Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 It is dying. I hope it doesn't get to the point that a bricks and mortar shop does not exist, but I can see it happening, in the next couple of years! 😮 🤔 ☹️ GNR-Gordon-4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go_West Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 perchance it sleepeth" you are speaking about the little train in North Devon L&B and yes it was closed years ago now it has had one of the original engines rebuilt and a good set of original coaches the line is growing year by year and one day will be put back as it was even if the cost is going through the roof they will do it but having said that it was on the 6 .0 o'clock news Wednesday with local peopl aposed to its expansion and are forming a group to stop its expansion so even Hornby or a new company could start up the live steam models again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The son of Triangman Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 OO live steam has a future to be sure, but it needs to be priced for the masses and with the issues in it's running resolved. Being a premium product excludes it from a massive market and the crazy ebay prices and profiteering on that place pushes even more potential buyers away. As an example, not live steam I know, but some parallels. Tri-ang in the old days more or less took over the marketplace with it's products by being cheaper than it's competitor and making them available to the mass market. The company became the people's model railway maker. Live steam needs to be such a product, a product anyone can save for and buy at sensbile prices with it's flaws sorted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlanesTV Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 OO live steam has a future to be sure, but it needs to be priced for the masses and with the issues in it's running resolved. Being a premium product excludes it from a massive market and the crazy ebay prices and profiteering on that place pushes even more potential buyers away. As an example, not live steam I know, but some parallels. Tri-ang in the old days more or less took over the marketplace with it's products by being cheaper than it's competitor and making them available to the mass market. The company became the people's model railway maker. Live steam needs to be such a product, a product anyone can save for and buy at sensbile prices with it's flaws sorted. It will be clear to you that I am a big supporter of Hornby Live Steam. I've got it and I love it but I am aware of its limitations and it's those that will prevent it from being a mass market product. You cant run it around a 6' x 4' track in a third bedroom with any realism. It needs a big space and not many people have that except perhaps in the garden. Marketed as a garden railway with 3' lengths of clip-together track (like we used to do with small lengths on the dining table) then it might become mass market. If it isn't mass market it cant be cheap. That restricts its market but doesn't make it unviable. Gauge One has been successful at around £3000 per loco made in batches of around 100. Owners of maybe just one loco join together into regional clubs and share the running experience. I think OO Live Steam would thrive at £1000 per loco made in batches of say 250 or 500. That's not mass market but the eleven coaches and 50 trucks that Hornby would sell to complete the realism IS mass market and Hornby would benefit from that. (The 'flaws' incidentally have already been sorted or easily can be). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go_West Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 I do not see this LS coming back just yet if at all and if it did would it be like the units we have now? the A3 is a better made engine than the A4 and thats the way things go in all made goods, once we had a black/white TV now we have colour along with a built in PC that will get you on the net. saying that a new engine and control system might not fit in with the old LS syatem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlanesTV Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 It all boils down to whether owning it is sufficient fun to justify the cost. Sadly just about everyone who bought live steam never got to the fun. There's a 2 or 3 hour learning/running-in hurdle to jump and most models coming up for sale are "run once" or brand new so it's clear the owners had a disappointing time. The OO Live Steam Club is trying to persuade owners with dormant locos to have another go (armed now with the right instructions and advice) and catch those starting for the first time. A second hand Mallard set is still very affordable. When there are enough happy owners the demand might be there for a revival. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go_West Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 PlanesTVI think you are going round and round the same points and the fact is its out of production and if it ever came back it might not be what you are now operating I have made many in roads using the basic Hornby design and adding 7 new live steam models along with new electronics 4 different radio control systems which have helped in the operation and driving the Hornby Live Steam I don't see any one else offering any great changes which will be needed if it were to be relaunched with a new engine the amount of money needed to just develop a better working design that people could get out the box and run is not just the only thing to consider I know of people that even with long long layouts still have a problem driving Live Steam then there's the 6 Amps that each engine will draw when running if you want to run more and more you'll need a welding transformer to supply the power. So face it it will not be coming back any time soon so take off the rose glasses and just have fun with what we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlanesTV Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 So the 10,000 virtually new locos gathering dust on people's shelves are effectively scrap? The OO Live Steam Club has already proved there is scope for improvement by bringing out a £50 add-on controller that improves on Hornby's and their cylinder seals and oil additive improve performance too. The instructional DVD has been universally welcomed. Yes the system had imperfections but 10,000 units sat here begging for use and improvement is a hell of a head start to kicking it off again and delivering the immense fun that just a few so far have discovered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go_West Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 I have seen the control that the club is selling a box with relays and used it, and steam was crapped by BR in the 1960 due to the dirty work and high labour needed to keep them going. Even with engines still in good condition and very low mileage so is this history repeating it self.i offered a better unit to the club which they turned down other ideas also after working to 3 o'clock in the morning week in and week out were never received well ask Chris I still have many ideas to try out that could make these marvels run better and there must be better engineers than me that if we sat round a table could produce a plan to make improvements until then even if 10,000 sets are out there they will never meet some people's expectations in performance, operation and price. I think we have covered the points on why and we all would like to see it come back but? Still for any one interested I have been invited to run my steam engines at the Ilfracombe model railway show this Easter so must build a set up to take.Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlanesTV Posted March 17, 2018 Share Posted March 17, 2018 OK Ken I am now putting 2 and 2 together. My son lives in Devon so I do visit occasionally, sadly not this Easter and he's coming to Lincolnshire. We need to talk. I'll be in touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The son of Triangman Posted March 25, 2018 Share Posted March 25, 2018 As I have already said you also have to think of the price, the more the prices go up the more people get excluded from something. Not everyone has a lot of income so live steam will eventually be an elite-ist and dust collectors hobby. Unless it is re-introduced in improved form at affordable prices then OO live steam will slowly continiue it's drift into a minority hobby. We are in a recession, look at outside industry etc., 50,000 retailers according to official government figures are hanging on by their fingernails. A lot of people earn the minimum wage or just above including myself at present. Rising household bills, rising food prices, cars are a nightmare running costs wise to run now for just an example. My car has just cost me nearly £1000 in the last few months, road tax, mot, service, the odd minor repair, it all adds up. A £1000 OO live steam loco would be like buying a £30,000 car to the majority of people who are just trying to keep their head above water at this time. OO live steam needs to be a mainstream affordable product if it is to be re-introduced and be a success again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlanesTV Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Nothing has changed since 2003 when Hornby estimated the market for live steam was 8000 units a year at £525 (for a set) and £325 for an individual loco. The fact that those figures were not realised was not down to the market but has (with hindsight) been identified as due to errors, omissions and incorrect advice in the original instruction book and accompanying DVD. That meant first adopters were disappointed and put them away after maybe one run. Inflation since 2003 takes those figures to £750 and £475 for 8000 units For 500 units the market will surely pay £1500 and £1000 especially now that some are fetching around £2,500. Hornby is not in a position to restart production but it doesn't need to. There is surely a market for batch production Aster style (100 units) converting existing unused Mallard stock. If Hornby was willing to (say) injection mould 500 (say) Merchant Navy, Duchess and 9F bodies using the high temperature plastic originally used for the Live Steam models then a third party partner could produce small batches of each by modyfying some of the 10,000 dormant models incorporating known improvements. This would be an excellent market test for the mainstream production you allude to Son of Triangman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2e0dtoeric Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Planes keeps going on about these 10,000 dormant models.One problem.They are not dormant as in lying, boxed up, in a corner of some old warehouse, they are in individual people's collections. Maybe some are stuffed in the back of the attic and forgotten about, but the majority are residing behind glass in show-cases, so you need some incentive to offer the owners, to get them to release their loco, and it needs to be something that has more value than that perceived in the loco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 Problem as I see it is trying to reach these supposed 10K owners and then get them to react to a pseudo marketing ploy To rebuy a product they probably regretted buying in the first place, if i deed that was the case.Where do these sales numbers come from and how do you try to reach out to this unidentifiable crowd of folk.Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The son of Triangman Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 I have have to agree. A revamp of exiting models is great but it will affect collectability of the items and originality. As for brand new models I cannot see high sales figures myself for brand new models, we are in a recession. Certainly you could reach the box collectors with dispoable income with brand new models, but not the mainstream market. Most people are struggling to survive financially, yes there will be a market but it will be small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dynax Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 @ planes tv, FFS, if you are that concerned and passoinate about LS put your money where your mouth is and put your hand in your own pocket and produce them yourself, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trainlover23 Posted March 28, 2018 Share Posted March 28, 2018 The whole of planes argument is totally flawed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huwsie Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 At this point I have to stand up in defence of Planes TV. He's spot on with owners that bought, set-up, crashed, packed away - I was one of them. I later revived the set onto a new dedicated layout that I built, but that had limited sucess so, yes, once again the model was in storage, right uo until I saw the OOLS club operate their models with what seemed like a modified controller... I enquired, and bought one of their controllers, and this put the models into a whole different perspective. I can now confidently run trains into a terminus station... I wouldn't have dreamed of that before..So now, particularly when the weather gets cold (in Cyprus) so that the steam becomes more pronounced, I remove all my trains from my layout, disconnect the DCC controller, connect the Live Steam, and away we go.. in fact there's pictures on this website somewhere of my LSFS in action.. It's a fantastic system, but, as stated here, it's very unique and certainly not for everyone due to many factors, including not having adequate space for a suitable layout. The models are also very maintenance active.. meaning that they need a lot of care and 'know how', for which the OOLS Club is very supportive.I can certainly declare that I'm running these OOLS models very successfully, and very enjoyably, and if there's ever going to be a OOLS 9F.... here's your very first order. I also agree that for fewer orders / lower production there has to be a higher price, but yes, for something as unique as OOLS, I'm happy to treat myself, because I've certainly lost the appetite for £200 + DCC ready locomotives... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjb1961 Posted May 14, 2018 Share Posted May 14, 2018 I introduced my oldest son to hornby live steam by giving him a mallard set about a year ago ,,,,,he's since gone on to buy the flying Scotsman set ,another f scots an ,a silver link and latley a Golden Fleece ,,,he is planning on building a layout in a large log cabin in his garden and run these ,,,I myself do have the mallard and f Scotsman sets ,they just sit on top of the wardrobe ,unused ,,both have only been steamed a couple of times each and run on the rolling road ,,,,,,who knows what's is in store for them in the future ,maybe stay on the wardrobe or stretching there legs on a layout. ,,,,,mjb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go_West Posted May 16, 2018 Share Posted May 16, 2018 mjbwhy not wait till your son has his layout up an running and take them over to his layout and have a steam day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjb1961 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 mjbwhy not wait till your son has his layout up an running and take them over to his layout and have a steam day. More than likely will ,,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The son of Triangman Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 If you want new live steam models I think the club should make them. I don't think there is a big enough market going by the prices on ebay and the systems flaws, we are in a recession and people are watching the pennies, so the models will mostly sell to those who have disposable income, which is a small marketplace. For now it's a dead technology mainstream production wise, simply not commerically viable at present for a majority market, it's a niche product. When things improve economically and Hornby are back into a good state financially then it may be time to look at making new models and improving the technology but for now live steam sleeps production wise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlanesTV Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 You are right Son of Triang Man, Hornby Live Steam is not going to be a mass market product again any time soon but slowly but surely usully spurred by a visit the OO Live Steam Club Roadshow, disappointed owners of long dormant locos are having another go, especially with the Club's new add-on Live Drive controller and discovering what fun they are. Newcomers are also sourcing 2nd hand products as evidenced on ebay where some eye-watering selling prices have brought many more onto the market. That said, The Club has also secured/sourced a range of spare parts to supplement Hornby's continuing (thank you Hornby) service support. Watch this space for an announcement of a short production run of 'new' live steam locomotives. The speed that they sell out will be an indicator of demand for a bigger re-launch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlanesTV Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 obviously got diverted.... meant to say.... that said, you can buy a Mallard set for around what they sold at 10 to 15 years ago, £400 or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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