HM 6010 with Peco PL-11

[Connor-350963]

Hello there,

I have just finished setting up my Hm 6010 on my small layout. I have 3 of these modules for 12 points and they are all peco points controlled by P-11 motors. The issue is I can hear powering going to the point motors but they just twitch and don't fully move. I want my entire layout to be app controlled and this is perplexing me. I have the wires in the module correctly (I know that peco and hornby reverse which wire colour is common) so I’m all out of ideas. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[96RAF]

Connect a motor to the 6010 off track and see if it works. If so check motor alignment when installed as it can be critical.

The 6010 has smaller internal CDUs than the DCC equivalent R8247 acc decoder and in addition port 4 whilst having boosted amperage to run a turntable motor only outputs 12v as opposed to the other ports outputting at 14v.

When first introduced 6010 point output was set to a single 100mS pulse, but in order to improve point firing reliability it was changed to a double pulse for 500mS.

[P-Henny]

Just something to try.

Surface mounted point motors can become sticky if the mounting screws into the baseboard are done up too tightly. Loosen them off so that you can detect slight movement with your fingers and test again.

[Connor-350963]

I’ve made sure all the motors are aligned but still nothing. They work just fine without being connected to the points. Are the peco points just too heavy for the modules to move? They motors worked just fine with I had them installed on switches connected to a regular dc power pack but I want the app control.

[96RAF]

I have run paired R8014 regular solenoid motors and R8243 surface mount solenoid motors on OO track using a 6010 module and they were fine. I would have thought TT120 points would be easier to move.

Edit - text amended to reflect later info.

[Connor-350963]

I am running OO points. It’s an OO layout with peco points and peco point motors. I live in Canada so that’s what’s readily available. Getting actual Hornby track and points is a little difficult

[Connor-350963]

Update: I after some fiddling it seems like the motors will easily push the points back into the straight position but won’t pull them

back into the curved position. This never happened when I had the original power. Some of the points that aren’t on the raised roadbed will work both ways just fine but others won’t. I must say I’m getting frustrated. I don’t want to have to rip everything up and replace it with hornby switches because it’s not easy to get here.

[Dodge1965]

I had similar issue with the Peco P1001 point’s motor, i was following the HM 6010 drawing for points, but with help from Rallymatt, he worked our the wires need swapping.

Green needs to be in the middle.

[P-Henny]

Some of the points that aren’t on the raised road bed will work both ways just fine but others won’t.

 

 

Apologies for the length of this post, but I felt the need to provide a detailed comprehensive reply.

There is a clue in that quoted statement.

The ones that are not on the raised road bed that work, will be (I assume) on a perfectly flat surface and level with the track. Whereas, the ones on the road bed that are sticking, will be mounted on a raised bed surface that may not be perfectly flat.

This leads me back to my earlier suggestion about loosening the fixing screws.

The output of your previous operation circuit will almost certainly delivered more power than the HM6010, the voltage & current would have been higher (see Appendix below). The extra power would have forced the solenoid in the motor past its sticking issues.

Unless the motor is fixed to a perfectly flat surface, it will flex, hence my loosen the screws suggestion. Any flexing will cause the solenoid to stick.

I have seen posts on this forum that put forward this following solution that claimed to work.

Dig out the scenic material that is creating the raised track bed underneath where the point motor will be mounted to expose the baseboard which should give a flat starting position. Then use a suitably sized (thickness) spacer made out of sheet material such as for example 'Plasticard' to raise the point motor up so that it is both flat and level with the operating bar on the point (turnout). Or alternatively a number of washers used with the mounting screws to raise the motor up off the baseboard by the distance required to achieve level horizontal alignment. The air gap under the motor then guarantees (within reason) that the motor is not flexed in any way.

As well as being mounted on a perfectly flat surface, the motor needs to be horizontally level with the point (turnout) operating bar and preferably very slightly above it so that the operating lever of the motor is a loose fit on the point (turnout) operating pin. Any tightness due to horizontal alignment inaccuracies where the motor operating lever attaches to the point (turnout) operating bar can cause the solenoid to stick.

The previous installation would most likely have had these sticky issues, but the extra power delivered by your previous operating circuit had enough power to overcome them.

Appendix.

The weak power output of the Hornby HM6010 Accessory Controller is shared with the Hornby R8247 DCC Accessory Decoder. In essence, it is due to the relatively low internally derived 15 volt supply voltage available for the internal drive circuits. The PL-11 and other similar solenoid point motors work so much more efficiently with higher voltages i.e 16 volts AC and/or 19 volts DC.

Because of the way 'Sinewave' AC voltages are measured using RMS mathmatics, a 16 volt sinewave AC supply has a peak voltage of 16 x 1.414 = 22.6 volts, that once full wave rectified and smoothed into DC equates to a DC supply of about 21 volts (hence the recommended alternative 19 volts DC option). Thus the 15 volt DC input to the HM6010 point controllers cannot provide the same output performance as a pure analogue circuit as you previously used as the controller outputs cannot exceed 15 volts and in practice will be less than 15 volts due to internal circuit voltage losses. This requires the installation of the solenoid motors to be absolutely perfect to compensate.

[96RAF]

It is a quirk that Hornby and Peco use the same three colours but choose to use them in a different order. I seem to remember Hornby even used to have their point motors and signals wired differently as well just to add to the confusion. At one point their signals had green as earth connected to the metal post and the lamps as switched positives. All very odd.

On the R8247 DCC PAD the C terminal is wired common internally so the larger capacitors are ganged across all four ports. The other connections are erroneously marked + and -.

On the 6010 the C terminal of each port is wired separately internally thus each port has its own capacitor. Port 4 is not helped by only being 12v output but at higher amps to run a turntable motor. The other terminals are now marked A and B. Logic would say mark them thus << + >> (this way, positive, that way).

When it comes to CDUs either internal to modules or as external devices the operating power (punch) comes from the square of the voltage not the size of the capacitor, which is why AC and resultant higher DC voltages work better than these accessory modules.

[HST Mainline]

I use PL-11 with the 6010. They work perfectly.

I agree with Dodge, make sure green wire goes in the middle.

The wiring is not the same as the Hornby point motor, thus being a source of confusion.

[NC1]

The HM6010 problems driving point motors is also covered in the "HM6010 Issues" thread. To get more switching energy, it is possible to link the "C" outpits of channels 1 to 3 together.

I found that this gave much more reliable switching with PL-11 point motors.

[96RAF]

Do not common the C terminal of port 4 with the others.

[Tolak]

In order to reduce the confusion, is it not useful to measure the resistance between each pair of the three wires. The wire that is common between the two lowest resistances is the common return, and the other two are the drives in each direction. (I would expect the resistance measured for the other pair to be the sum of the two lowest values)

[96RAF]

Only meter across the point motor wires when disconnected. Do not meter resistance across the 6010 ports. You can check port output voltage but not resistance.

[Bexhill Donkey]

If the wiring is correct, the likely explanation for the points not working is that the issue is with the power supply. The HM6010 needs its own PSU. The one that comes with the eLink can be used. Although there is a connection for connecting the HM6010 to a DCC Power track, PL-11's require more power.

[96RAF]

If the wiring is correct, the likely explanation for the points not working is that the issue is with the power supply. The HM6010 needs its own PSU. The one that comes with the eLink can be used. Although there is a connection for connecting the HM6010 to a DCC Power track, PL-11's require more power.

 

 

The DCC track power method does not work at the 6010 revision versions available in HM DC app. That only works in the HM DC~c app at a higher revision state not compatible with the DC app.

 

 

[BritInVanCA]

I’m jumping on this thread because I posted something about the HM6010 with a DCC power source and the HM DCC app on the HM7000 thread. Everyone was very helpful to repost what they had already answered here I.e. to use the accessory controller with HM DCC you need a separate power source from the bus if your bus is DCC.

Now I’m discovering the issue with PL10/11 point motors where the recommended power source is AC 16v and the HM6010 output is 14v DC. Unless your point motors are perfectly placed (position, tension, etc.) they don’t work reliably. I tested mine on installation with my DC controller that has a 17A AC accessory output and they worked fine. The extra power makes them more forgiving I guess.

Hey this hobby is certainly an education!