Arnold TT:120 2024 Range

[Rallymatt]

Is the Arnold (TT:120) range announced in January similarly to most of the other Hornby Hobbies ranges?

Now with TT:120 picking up pace not only in UK but across Europe again, it’s potentially an opportunity for Arnold to announce some new models. Orient Express coach set would be absolutely amazing, both Hornby and Arnold have shown what they can do in terms of superb quality in TT:120. I feel I need to revisit my childhood (some more) Back then it was a 4 coach Wagon Lit set in HO from Jouef, and that was because my first trip to France involved taking the real thing, last days of the original Boat Train, Dover-Dunkirk. 😁

[ellocoloco]

Last year the International Brands 2023 programme was announced the day after the main OO selection. It was on the 11th of Jan last year so potentially TT120ers will get a British announcement on the 10th and Continental surprises the day after. The 11th was a Wednesday last year so it may well be Wed 10th. Who knows!!!

There has been speculation on another forum we both know that the changes in Hornby's management over the last year may lead to changes in how the range is announced. Maybe, maybe not. Either way, fingers crossed for something we both want. sunglasses

[Rallymatt]

Main British Hornby TT:120 range release is due in April, it was always planned to be different to OO, probably due to the rapid way the range is evolving, I have a sneaking feeling it’s to allow Hornby to move the order in which some models are being brought out; lead time in developing a brand new model from scratch is significant!

I hope Arnold is ready with something new in TT:120, the current models seem to fly out of the warehouse 😁

[ellocoloco]

Did your notice the DR58 on clearance? wink

Edit: Just noticed they have all gone.

[Generic Hornby Username]

Great thread! I'm expecting the following from Arnold TT in their range launch:

1) Class 66 set goes on preorder- In one of the press releases issued to World of Railways, it was mentioned that a TT Class 66 set would be released by Arnold in 2023. Obviously, that goal was not reached due to a lack of manufacturing capacity. This set is likely high priority for Arnold. It will be competing directly with TT sets from Tillig and Roco. I suspect that this Arnold set could represent Arnold's first ever HM7000 product. If the pricing for the Hornby TT120 HM7000 sets are any indication, they should be comparable or even lower priced than Tillig and Roco's TT digital sets. The Class 66 set will feature an appropriate continental livery and 3 container wagons (almost undoubtably it will be the new Sffgmss wagons). 

2) Vossloh DE 18 train set goes on preorder- Another promised Arnold TT120 train set. This will feature Arnold's Vossloh DE 18 locomotive that they have been tooling, along with two of the forthcoming grain hoppers they are developing. Again, there's a strong chance we see HM7000 versions of this set. The Arnold's foray into the world of HM7000 would logically start with high volume train sets. 

3) 2-3 new liveries of the Class 66 go on preorder- While they are essentially the face of modern British rail freight, the Class 66 has also had a successful career on the continent. Announcing new variants of the Class 66 aimed at the European market makes perfect sense. 

4) New options for their Sffgmss wagons- The Arnold Sffgmss wagons seem to be selling out at a variety of retailers. For good reason- the reviews from individuals who have bought the wagons seems to be very positive. And the ability for these wagons to be used in both the United Kingdom and the continent make them very useful. I expect that we will see additional container liveries added. Right now we have DHL, One, Maersk. Adding additional container liveries next is practically a no brainer. 

5) Additional 2 axle ferry wagons liveries- While Arnold has already released a significant number of liveries, some of these livery options predate Hornby TT120’s launch. These wagon’s versatility make them incredibly useful for a number of British eras and European epochs. Rereleasing some variants would be logical 

Those are my current predications that I feel have a greater than 50% chance of occurring. What about less-likely outcomes? Here goes nothing!

1) Additional ferry wagons- The German model train shop ModellBahnUnion has launched an array of ferry wagons in HO and N. But they have not launched anything in TT. Arnold/Hornby have an opportunity to sell rolling stock appropriate for both British TT and continental TT. They also have the unique presence in both markets to make it a reality. The aforementioned ferry wagons are a great example of this. They allow modelers in Britain and the continent to add to their collection. Top contenders for this include Rbmms stake wagons, Tcefs wagons, and the Zafns tank wagons. With appropriate marketing through brochures and website links, Hornby can help British customers find these suitable TT wagons for their layouts. Hornby/Arnold should consider including either iconography or branding to denote models with cross-market appeal. The Class 66 is the ultimate example of how a single tooling can be leveraged. 

2) Eurostar- This one is totally a long shot. But Hornby/Jouef have a history with the Eurostar. Its use in France, Belgium, and Britain make it uniquely suited for cross promotion. It would also allow Hornby/Arnold to own one of the high-profile trains in TT. Hornby seems to like owning multiple-unit trains (HSTs, APTs, Class 800s, Pendolinos, Flirts). And Arnold also seems to have an appetite for multiple-unit trains. A newly-tooled Eurostar would be a bold bet, but they could probably sell copies of it both in Britain and the continent for the next 20 years. Highly improbable, but it would be cool! 

3) ICE 4- Tillig has a solid model of the ICE 1 and Piko have their stalwart ICE 3. Launching competitors to either of those incumbents would be foolhardy. Particularly Piko’s TT ICE 3 that I regularly see discounted. Not worth trying compete with them! But what about ICE 4? As far as I know there is no a version of the ICE 4 in TT. Claiming one of the iconic ICE trains could prove to be a fruitful endeavor. It’s likely that they could sell versions of the ICE 4 for decades. Again, highly improbable. 

Of course, I really have no idea what other tricks they have up their sleeves. As diverse Hornby’s options are in Britain, Arnold has all of Europe to choose from. Last year we saw 3 newly-tooled items in TT (Vossloh DE 18, Sffgmss, and the grain hoppers). I do like RM’s idea of the Orient Express cars. Arnold/Rivarossi have both released versions of those cars in the past. Adding TT versions would make sense since they already have the basic research and schematics from their HO/N versions.  

I’m excited to see what emerges! 

Links:

Source for the train sets:

https://www.world-of-railways.co.uk/news/hornby-2023-continental-range/ 

Vossloh DE 18- You can see a picture of the Vossloh DE 18 locomotive that will appear in the train set at the following link. It should be noted that the livery will be different, but it should be the same locomotive:

https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/Diesel+Locomotive/Diesel+Locomotive/Arnold%2DHN9059S/gb/modell_411538.html 

Arnold Grain Wagons- You can follow this link to see the grain hoppers that will appear in the Vossloh DE 18 train set. Of course, the livery will be different in the train set:

https://www.modellbahnshop-lippe.com/Freight+cars+%26+Goods+Wagons/Swing+roof+wagon/Arnold%2DHN9734/gb/modell_411871.html

[ellocoloco]

I see the PIKO 2024 TT120 new items has been released. I wonder if there is anything in there useful to British modellers?

[Rallymatt]

If I was sitting in a boardroom in Hornby Towers, I’d be wanting to hear some very very good reasons why there was NOT going to be a TT:120 Eurostar. Its pan European appeal is unprecedented. I’d be seriously looking at getting Spanish and Italian High speed trains out in TT:120. Making old steamers is ok but the younger modellers like running what they see on the rails now, Pete Watermans Making Tracks layouts have proved this time and time again. I was the same at 12, it was all 125s and Class 47s because that’s what I saw.

[Generic Hornby Username]

You raise a really good point there, RM.

I was doing some digging last night into the history of Arnold TT. I hit the veritable jackpot of continental TT catalogues going back decades. This website is maintained by a faithful historian. While the content is not in English, between pictures and Google translate I was able to figure things out with little issue.

https://as.rumia.edu.pl/tt/kat/katalogi.asp?firm=Arno

The reason I bring this up is to report a few interesting nuggets I found. The Piko TT ICE 3 model that Peachy and others on here have tested are clearly somewhat dated. Assuming the catalogue collection is complete, the first ICE 3 models Piko launched were in 2007. Additional cars were added in 2008. While I'm sure that modifications to the mechanism/detailing have been made since 2007, the bones of the train are 17 years old. I don't say any of this to knock the model (which is a great value and something I'm interested in picking up), but to point how much longevity an EMU could have for Hornby/Arnold. And Tillig's ICE 1 appears to be twenty-five years old. If Hornby/Arnold design the product well, they could be selling copies of the EMU in 2050.

A Eurostar, continental Pendolino, ICE 4, or a TGV would represent a significant investment. Probably the equivalent of tooling a normal locomotive and two distinct coaches. But it would be a bold move. Smaller scales like N and TT are uniquely suited for DMU/EMUs. That's probably part of the reason there are at least three and maybe four DMU/EMUs in Hornby TT120's roadmap.

[Generic Hornby Username]

Thanks for the heads up, ellocoloco! From what I could gather, it seems like there isn't too much opportunity for British crossover in Piko's 2024 range. Admittedly, I might be missing something. Of course, there's no harm in a German firm focusing on its core market. They're launching several newly tooled locomotives in TT. That's a robust investment from Piko. Whether or not they are interoperable with our budding British outline, they're a welcome addition to the world of TT!

[Rallymatt]

I have two excellent Piko locos running on High Fell, a slight flight of fancy but ‘could have happened’ British Rail had a few clunkers in the early stages of Dieselisation and looking abroad could have happened and a little table turning inspired by the Kestrel story, A BR130 (Soviet loco built in Ukraine) comes to UK on trials… a V80 heavy shunter on Dock Duties at Tyne Dock. The Piko locos are not Hornby/Arnold levels of detail but are excellent performers. The dead Roco BR108 I have is less impressive, Roco are trying to wash their hands of it so looks like I now need to begin International Legal proceedings… we should be so glad of Hornby’s excellent Customer Service culture!

[Rallymatt]

A TT:120 TGV would be another winner, the scale lends itself so well to long train formations. I’m sure a lot of the internal tech for all the high speed ‘sets’ could be common reducing overall development costs but the model longevity and diversity incredible. Would Hornby launch TT:120 in their other International Brands and inject the same lease of new life as they have with Hornby; Jouef TT:120, Lima TT:120, Electrotren TT:120, Rivarossi TT:120…..(please don’t do Bassett-Lowke Steam Punk TT:120 though!) but do relaunch its O gauge 😁

[Generic Hornby Username]

Focusing on TT ranges for Jouef and Electrotren is intriguing. The use of those brands to sell these new products would presumably give the products additional clout. After reviewing the TT locomotives that Arnold has released over the years, some themes emerged. First, here is a list of the Arnold TT locomotive/wagon toolings I’m aware of. 

-Dopplestock wagons (2013) 

-E251/DB 171 (2013)

-Kö/Köf II Shunting locomotive (2013)

-DR Class 95 (2014)

-ASF Accumulator Shunting Locomotive (2014)

-Self discharging ballast wagons (2015)

-Rekowagen (2020)

-Ferry Wagon (2020)

-DR Class 58 (2022)

-Vossloh DE 18 (2023)

-Sffgmss (2023) 

-Uapps/Uagps (2023)

-Class 66 (2023)

The year beside the name of the tooling indicates when they were first announced (to the best of my understanding).  

Two themes that standout are the following. Initially, Arnold’s TT products were aimed at East Germans modeling DR or shortly after reunification. Their primary competitor in their endeavors would be Tillig and Kuehn (now Roco). The second theme that emerges is that after a fairly robust range of products launching from 2013-2015, Arnold TT’s progress was arrested. A five-year drought followed an ambitious start. I wouldn’t be surprised if Simon was the catalyst behind Arnold TT’s introduction in 2013, and that his departure meant the scale lost momentum. His return in the late 2010s might be the reason we see a renewed TT investment starting in 2020. The Ferry Wagon, with its British interoperability, is also a hint. We know that Hornby’s British TT was in development from 2018/2019. It’s not an absurd leap to see the connection. 

But what about the more recent launches? 2023’s lineup of products represented a shift for Arnold TT120. The Vossloh DE 18 is relatively young locomotive. After initial orders starting in Germany, it is now preparing for application in France, Belgium, and Italy. It has decades of service life ahead of it all over the EU. The Class 66, while obviously an outgrowth of British TT, is another modern locomotive in use over a broader geography. And both the Sffgmss and Uapps/Uagps are in use across Europe. They’re also more modern. Each of the new 2023 Arnold toolings are suitable for France and Germany. 

The options for French/Spanish/Italian TT are sparse. Increasing the products available is an exciting prospect. I’m hoping 2023 was not an outlier for Arnold TT120. I’d love to see 2-3 new tooling projects, with a focus on interoperability with the UK and across Europe. 

It’s also worth pointing out that the list of Arnold TT toolings demonstrates how incredibly ambitious Hornby TT120 is. In two years it will probably be at parity with Arnold TT120’s total toolings. We’re getting close (A1/3, A4, Pullman, MK 1, TTA, 21 Ton mineral, HAA, MK 2E/F, Class 50, 08, etc). It’s an incredibly impressive commitment. 

I also took some time to review the e320 Eurostar. The Eurostar e320 is based on the Siemens Velaro platform. That Velaro platform is itself based on the ICE 3. Does Piko have a TT120 Eurostar only a simple livery application away? Nope. While they’re both part of the same family, the two trains are distinct generations. Basically, there are 3 generations of Velaro. 

Generation 1 ) Includes the original ICE 3, China’s Velaro, Renfe’s Velaro, and Russia’s heavily-modified Velaro

Generation 2) Includes e320 Eurostar, Velaro D ICE 3, Velaro Neo ICE 3, and the Turkish Velaro

Generation 3) Velaro Nova (Siemens’ failed attempt at the HS2 contract), Velaro Pioneer (US version for Brightline West), and a forthcoming DB AG ICE train. 

Piko’s TT ICE 3 model is the 1st generation Velaro. The 2nd Generation Velaro is visually quite different. The differences are most pronounced in the cab cars. The body shell has been radically altered. And it’s not much better on the passenger carriages. I’m not sure anything could be salvaged from Piko’s existing TT model. They’re not the same train.

This is partially why not a single e320 Eurostar model has emerged. Even though a variety of firms have 1st generation ICE 3 tooling. It would take entirely-new tooling to release an accurate e320. If Arnold/Hornby released a e320 Eurostar they could also release both Velaro D and Velaro Neo variants that have never been modeled in TT. In fact, I’m not sure the Velaro D or Neo have even been modeled in HO or N.  

I actually find this pretty compelling. One tooling could produce models for Britain, France, Belgium, The Netherlands, and Germany. 

Alternatively, they could model the e300 Eurostar. That Eurostar is still in use, and it would allow multiple liveries. It’s not quite as future-proofed though. 

I think I’m going to suggest Eurostar in the TT120 wishlists section. Either the e300 or e320 would make suitable models! 

[Rallymatt]

I can see you have put real thought into this and it’s looking more like a ‘no brainer’

On the commercial aspect, a TT:120 range under the various National brands would make a lot of sense. People still see Jouef and being French, Lima being Italian etc and it still connects with childhood memories although in essence the whole range is connected. The track system and a superb modern control system exists now, it wouldn’t be a lot to get a TT:120 ball rolling.

When parents or relations take the kids to watch the trains today, they see Eurostars and TGV’s etc, often at very impressive speed, most nations have pride in their high speed passenger network and they are amazing machines. The freights are impressive, a Vectron or a 66 dragging a massive tanker/container train that seems to go on forever. These are multi national trains, a lot of liveries and options. I am sure the space pressures on homes across Europe and Elsewhere, are just as valid as they are in UK and Germany where TT is mainly.

And the final and huge trump card, it’s a common scale so integrates perfectly. Not all modellers are bothered if a particular piece of stock ran in certain country but size and couplings are important.

[Paul M]

Eurostar, TGVs etc that are bi directional would open up shelf layouts and terminus platforms. Would be good for small loop layouts too.

[ellocoloco]

Going forward I think Hornby need to decide on how they are going to maximise and harmonise TT across the ranges. Branding British stock as TT120 to differentiate it from the misadventures of the past is fine but unnecessary in the global scheme. TT is 1/120. There is no reason to carry the number as this is not deemed necessary by European producers.

The next thing is how they are going to integrate the various brands under the Hornby umbrella. At present there are only Hornby and Arnold offering TT models, but if this were to change, each brand offering a different TT selection would be redundant. I would suggest a collective brand such as Hornby TT International would be better. One identity globally.

Then they need to look at prices. British TT seems unreasonably cheap when compared to Arnold. If you look at the price of a similar spec 2-10-0 and 4-6-2 (9F - £253 A2 - £264) in OO scale they can be fairly close for a similar level model. In TT we have a greater disparity 2-10-0 Arnold BR58 £296 and 4-6-2 Duchess £168. Will universal stock such as the Class 66 see similar disparencies. Above all, I hope the TT parts of the Hornby empire talk to each other!

British TT came too late for me. I dumped OO 30yrs ago because of the scale/gauge discrepancy - and the quality - and went for European HO. Occasionally I ventured back to British HO and Trix have rewarded me for my patience with this years Scotsman. For many others I see a great future for TT especially for people like me who love trains from wherever they come.

[Rallymatt]

Ellocoloco an interesting perspective. I think the TT:120 branding adds something and using the established International brands ties the whole thing in and adds a halo effect to the existing ranges. As well known as Hornby is, in some markets it’s less so. Rivarossi TT:120 would be great for the US market and that’s a big market

The pricing situation is interesting, for ages I have been saying models should cost more in UK but be better. I want bombproof mechanicals and excellent detail.

[Generic Hornby Username]

I think you’re right on the pricing point, ellocoloco. I’ve wondered if it has to do with the volume being sold. I’m not sure. Hopefully as Arnold TT grows prices will match Hornby TT120.

And I’ll just add that I’ve seen the product design video for the Marklin HO Flying Scotsman. It looks fantastic! I hope you enjoy that wonderful new locomotive!

[96RAF]

2024 all brands International catalogue here . . .

http://www.railway.fr/Documentation/HORNBYCAT2024.pdf

[D9020 Nimbus]

Not quite all brands — it's HO only, as the cover makes clear.

So no Arnold.

[ellocoloco]

But for you guys who really want the Arnold TT selection, try here. sunglasses

2024_Arnold_N-TT.pdf

At a quick glance it appears to be Class 66 free zone!

[Rallymatt]

Some lovely models available. Nothing sadly in TT from Arnold that I can sensibly go for although those bogie hoppers are tempting. I presume this is essentially what the International launch will cover on 10/01/24

[ellocoloco]

You're right. This is the launch. I don't remember on previous years the .pdf catalogue being available early - and on Hornby official websites! No mention of the suggestion regarding OO that the range will be split and announced through the year.

On the 10th we find out the prices and can place our orders!

[Generic Hornby Username]

The big surprises from this range launch...

1) No Class 66 models! A huge surprise to me. With Class 66s set to start deliveries over the Summer, additional European variants with traction tires would make sense to add to the range in 2024. Instead, not a single Class 66. Are Hornby going to be selling the promised European Class 66s through their British brand? That seems at odds with the promised Arnold Class 66 set and the "Arnold" branding on the bottom of the Class 66 tooling pictures shared by Hornby.

2) No sets- This is the other big surprise. No sign of the two previously announced sets. This indicates that they might have been cancelled.

Other than that, I think everything is pretty predictable. Unfortunately, we do not appear to be getting any newly-tooled products. We are getting tooling updates/variations to the coaches. But those are relatively minor. The variations in the grain wagons and Sfgmmss wagons are welcome.

All and all a conservative range launch for Arnold TT. Which is too bad. The difference from 2023 to 2024 is pretty stark. It does make me wonder if we're going to see Hornby TT120 take full responsibility for the entirety of Hornby Group's TT products. It could be that the Arnold TT120 brand is going to be sunset and everything will be under the Hornby TT120 brand. This would leave Arnold focused on N scale. Which is not necessarily a bad thing.

There is some reason to suspect this. Here is this conversation from the Hornby TT120 magazine with the head of the TT120 brand:

Editor: Are there plans to add continental TT:120 items to the range, for example those from Arnold?

Sarah: When launching Hornby TT:120, there was a conscious decision to create as much of a universally compatible system as possible hence using the 1:120 scale as opposed to the old Tri- ang scale of 1:101.6.

Although we are currently concentrating on expanding the range based on UK locomotives as a priority, the natural progression will be to expand the range to include European models.

Interestingly, the Hornby TT:120 range is being sold by our European team so there is a lot of interest in UK locomotives.

[Generic Hornby Username]

One good piece of news to come with this range launch are the first HMDCC locomotives in the international ranges. The new E.656 locomotive is equipped with HMDCC from the factory. They have also added HMDCC to at least four of the trams Rivarossi offers. I'm still reviewing the HO and N ranges. It's a good lineup!

[HST Mainline]

Hopefully as Arnold TT grows prices will match Hornby TT120.

 

 

They won't. The reason: European modellers are used to pay a lot more than UK modellers. That alone can be a reason for the higher prices on the continental models. There is no reason to make them cheap, people will buy them anyway.

I would also guess that the production quality on the continental models is higher than the UK models. Simply because expectations are higher, as you compete with the quality from PIKO, Tillig etc.

Also, Arnold TT has been around longer than Hornby TT. Since we have not seen lower prices, I do not think we will.