Original RAF markings

[Jon-1296662]

Would any other modellers out there, be interested in making an original Mustang in the original RAF markings?  Because, I feel that everyone forgets (especially when it is constantly, and wrongly called a P-51 Mustang in films, documentaries and by historians, which is a about t, because it should be called and listed as the Mustang (P-51), for the simple reason that it was designated as the Mustang, by the procurement authorities, before the plans had been drawn up, because it was felt that the name should reflect where it was built) that the Mustang was originally an RAF plane, that just happened to be built in the US. And I for one, would love the opportunity to have a chance to build an original Mustang in RAF colours, there was 18 RAF squadrons (which is only two less than the USAAF had) to choose from.

So I would obviously like to know, what the other modellers and the people at Airfix think about this idea!!!

[Ratch]

Airfix have issued the Mustang in RAF colours, so I'm not sure what your point is????

Issued as Small Starter Set (A55107) with decals for GA-S from 2012 to 2022.

 

The P-51 was designed and built by North American Aviation to an RAF requirement, which was improved by the Rolls Royce replacement to the Allison engine.

[Tour de Airfix]

I loved building this kit .. indeed all the Airfix Mustangs are great! 

 

[Hurricane Boy]

Hi Jon

just a couple of comments and questions…

an original Mustang in the original RAF markings?  do you mean one of the 650 Mustang I’s that the British Purchasing Commission purchased from North American Aviation in lieu of the Curtis P-40’s that the BPC wanted NAA to build for them under licence from Curtis? The Mustang was an original NAA design that NAA promised the BPC to be better than the P-40….and it certainly was. It was an American design. The USAAF ordered 2 aircraft as P-51 Apaches and some similar and related fighter bombers/ dive bombers known as A-36 Intruders. After December 7th, 1941, the USAAF took over RAF aircraft that had not been delivered and referred to them as P-51a’s. The USAAF later adopted the RAF name, Mustang for all their P-51’s. I sure wish that Airfix would make a good Mustang I / P-51a kit

wrongly called a P-51 Mustang? The major user of this aircraft was the USAAF who happened to call them P-51’s. So in reference to this aircraft in USAAF service you call them P-51 Mustangs P-51a’s, P-51b’s, P-51c’s, P-51d’s and so on, while in RAF and Commonwealth service you call them Mustang’s…..Mustang I’s, Mustang II’s, Mustang III’s and so on… Pick your poison!

that just happened to be built in the US.? ….. and specified, conceived, and designed in the US.

But to be fair, had the BPC not agreed with NAA’s proposal for the original order and had Rolls Royce Hucknall not seen the potential of the 60 series Merlin in this airframe we would not have had the great Mustang III/ IV / P-51b/c/d aircraft in WW2 

[SD45elect2000]

A-36 Apache

 

 

Randall

[SD45elect2000]

 P-51A1, Mustang 1A

 

Randall

Edited April 21 by SD45elect2000

[Marto]

1 hour ago, Hurricane Boy said:

 

Hi Jon

just a couple of comments and questions…

an original Mustang in the original RAF markings?  do you mean one of the 650 Mustang I’s that the British Purchasing Commission purchased from North American Aviation in lieu of the Curtis P-40’s that the BPC wanted NAA to build for them under licence from Curtis? The Mustang was an original NAA design that NAA promised the BPC to be better than the P-40….and it certainly was. It was an American design. The USAAF ordered 2 aircraft as P-51 Apaches and some similar and related fighter bombers/ dive bombers known as A-36 Intruders. After December 7th, 1941, the USAAF took over RAF aircraft that had not been delivered and referred to them as P-51a’s. The USAAF later adopted the RAF name, Mustang for all their P-51’s. I sure wish that Airfix would make a good Mustang I / P-51a kit

wrongly called a P-51 Mustang? The major user of this aircraft was the USAAF who happened to call them P-51’s. So in reference to this aircraft in USAAF service you call them P-51 Mustangs P-51a’s, P-51b’s, P-51c’s, P-51d’s and so on, while in RAF and Commonwealth service you call them Mustang’s…..Mustang I’s, Mustang II’s, Mustang III’s and so on… Pick your poison!

that just happened to be built in the US.? ….. and specified, conceived, and designed in the US.

But to be fair, had the BPC not agreed with NAA’s proposal for the original order and had Rolls Royce Hucknall not seen the potential of the 60 series Merlin in this airframe we would not have had the great Mustang III/ IV / P-51b/c/d aircraft in WW2 

In RNZAF service it was always P-51D Mustang, not Mustang IV.

[Hurricane Boy]

Hey Randall

i remember the original naming of the USAAF P-51’s from my dad’s war time aviation magazines verified by this copy/paste from wiki. 
The 150 NA-91s were designated P-51 by the newly formed USAAF and were initially named Apache, although this was soon dropped and the RAF name, Mustang, adopted instead

The A-36’s were called Intruders later adapting the Apache and Mustang names

[SD45elect2000]

7 minutes ago, Hurricane Boy said:

Hey Randall

i remember the original naming of the USAAF P-51’s from my dad’s war time aviation magazines verified by this copy/paste from wiki. 
The 150 NA-91s were designated P-51 by the newly formed USAAF and were initially named Apache, although this was soon dropped and the RAF name, Mustang, adopted instead

The A-36’s were called Intruders later adapting the Apache and Mustang names

I found a gap in my collection. i do not seem to have a P-51A/ Mustang I. I think these are the last Allison powered Mustangs that I don't have.

Also, I do not have any RAF painted Mustangs but I do have several more in the stash.

I thought that all of the A36 planes with the dive brakes and the Allison engine were Apache's.

I wonder who named the A-24 Banshee (which I don't have}? I may be able to find the parts to convert a Dauntless. 

 

Randall

[Hurricane Boy]

Hi Randall.  May I suggest.... Hollis Hills Mustang I from 414 Sqd RCAF aircraft RU-M AG488 that he flew over Dieppe on a tactical reconnaissance mission 19August1942 during the ill fated Dieppe raid. He knocked down a FW-190 for the first ever Mustang aerial victory. Hollis was an American volunteer in the RCAF who later re-mustered with the US Navy flying Hellcats in the Pacific becoming an ace there. 

[SD45elect2000]

1 hour ago, Hurricane Boy said:

Hi Randall.  May I suggest.... Hollis Hills Mustang I from 414 Sqd RCAF aircraft RU-M AG488 that he flew over Dieppe on a tactical reconnaissance mission 19August1942 during the ill fated Dieppe raid. He knocked down a FW-190 for the first ever Mustang aerial victory. Hollis was an American volunteer in the RCAF who later re-mustered with the US Navy flying Hellcats in the Pacific becoming an ace there. 

I think I have a decal collection for the Dieppe raid. I’m certain RU-M is included. 
 

Thanks for the idea!
 

Randall

[Hurricane Boy]

Hi Randall

check out this IPMS canada addendum of IPMS Canada articles on the Mustang I. Good detailing notes on adding the four 30 calibre machine guns, paint schemes etc

https://www.ipmscanada.com/rt-issues-text/Mustang Addendum (May 2020).pdf

 

[Hurricane Boy]

Hi Randall.  May I suggest.... Hollis Hills Mustang I from 414 Sqd RCAF aircraft RU-M AG488 that he flew over Dieppe on a tactical reconnaissance mission 19August1942 during the ill fated Dieppe raid. 

I should have said should have been AG 470 Randall. I wonder what AG488 was…..mis-filed in my brain in any event 
Tim

 

 

[Dominic Thomas]

According to ‘RAF Commands’, AG488 was a Mustang I which collided with AG403, both 2 [AC] Squadron, at Sawbridgeworth Airfield on 9 May 1942. P/O  Gosnell died of injuries & P/O Willett injured.

[Jon-1296662]

On 21/04/2024 at 20:33, Hurricane Boy said:

 

Hi Jon

just a couple of comments and questions…

an original Mustang in the original RAF markings?  do you mean one of the 650 Mustang I’s that the British Purchasing Commission purchased from North American Aviation in lieu of the Curtis P-40’s that the BPC wanted NAA to build for them under licence from Curtis? The Mustang was an original NAA design that NAA promised the BPC to be better than the P-40….and it certainly was. It was an American design. The USAAF ordered 2 aircraft as P-51 Apaches and some similar and related fighter bombers/ dive bombers known as A-36 Intruders. After December 7th, 1941, the USAAF took over RAF aircraft that had not been delivered and referred to them as P-51a’s. The USAAF later adopted the RAF name, Mustang for all their P-51’s. I sure wish that Airfix would make a good Mustang I / P-51a kit

wrongly called a P-51 Mustang? The major user of this aircraft was the USAAF who happened to call them P-51’s. So in reference to this aircraft in USAAF service you call them P-51 Mustangs P-51a’s, P-51b’s, P-51c’s, P-51d’s and so on, while in RAF and Commonwealth service you call them Mustang’s…..Mustang I’s, Mustang II’s, Mustang III’s and so on… Pick your poison!

that just happened to be built in the US.? ….. and specified, conceived, and designed in the US.

But to be fair, had the BPC not agreed with NAA’s proposal for the original order and had Rolls Royce Hucknall not seen the potential of the 60 series Merlin in this airframe we would not have had the great Mustang III/ IV / P-51b/c/d aircraft in WW2 

Hi Hurricane boy,

Firstly, I thank you for your reply, I meant as I said, I would like the chance to build an original Mustang, as was used by the RAF (before the USAAF got interested in them), whether it was powered by an Allison or a Roll Royce, but the idea of one of each would be even better.

secondly, while you are correct that the RAF had thought of buy the Curtiss p-40, and that the people who were asked to do it did say that they could design and build something better, they were still working to the specifications given by the procurement  offices needs, which was obviously exceeded, but the original designation was give as Mustang, which was given before the first plane was being built, and it was given in honour of the fact that it was being built in the US, which means that it should be recognised as the original title, shouldn’t it?

    Thirdly, I am fairly sure that your 1941 date is at least a year out, because, I am sure that the USAAF didn’t get interested until after the first conversions from the Allisons’s, to the Rolls Royce Merlin powered version, when the RAF made the Mustang X in mid to late 42, and while the USAAF were testing the Mustang X, it was the best part of a year, before they converted the B’s & C’s to use the Rolls Royce supercharged Merlin 66’s, which were then finally added to by the fully formed Mustang.

Fourthly, while I don’t have the total numbers of planes used by the British and the US, I do know that the RAF alone had 18 squadrons compared to the US’ 20 in the UK, but then there’s all of the other British Empire forces that used them in the Far East too, which I think would mean that your use of the US being “the major user”, something that is a close run thing, although, if you have the exact numbers used by both forces(US & RAF’s) then I am happy to learn.

    And finally, I am grateful for your comprehensive reply, and I look forward to your response to my reply, especially if you are adding to my knowledge base, which is fairly limited, because I am not a scholar, I am just an avid reader, and watcher of documentaries.

[peebeep]

1 hour ago, Jon-1296662 said:

... they were still working to the specifications given by the procurement  offices needs, which was obviously exceeded, but the original designation was give as Mustang, which was given before the first plane was being built, and it was given in honour of the fact that it was being built in the US, which means that it should be recognised as the original title, shouldn’t it?

 ...Thirdly, I am fairly sure that your 1941 date is at least a year out, because, I am sure that the USAAF didn’t get interested until after the first conversions from the Allisons’s, to the Rolls Royce Merlin powered version.

...Fourthly, while I don’t have the total numbers of planes used by the British and the US, I do know that the RAF alone had 18 squadrons compared to the US’ 20 in the UK, but then there’s all of the other British Empire forces that used them in the Far East too, which I think would mean that your use of the US being “the major user”, something that is a close run thing, although, if you have the exact numbers used by both forces(US & RAF’s) then I am happy to learn.

In point of fact 'Dutch' Kindelberger and his team had been working on a single seat design (and experimenting with laminar flow) prior to the BPC approaching them to licence build P-40s. That's why they were able to respond in such a short space of time. The name was chosen for RAF service, but it's not at all unusual for other users to adopt their own designations or names. In the US aircraft names were colloquial, officially they had numbered nomenclature prefixed by a role letter. P = Pursuit, B = Bomber, C = Cargo etc. Names were not used for official purposes in the US armed forces.

Whilst the USAAF didn't show real interest until the appearance of the Transatlantic B/C, the USAAC had already adopted the A-36, P-51 and P-51A. The P-51A/P-51A is equivalent to the RAF Mustang I/II respectively. This would be well within the time frame referenced by Hurricane Boy.

With respect to operator numbers, I don't have references to hand, but I would imagine by far the biggest operator would be the USAAF, the Eighth Air Force alone used the type in huge numbers. There is a breakdown in Roger Freeman's 'Mighty Eighth, but my copy is buried deep in the archives somewhere.    

[SD45elect2000]

22 hours ago, Hurricane Boy said:

Hi Randall.  May I suggest.... Hollis Hills Mustang I from 414 Sqd RCAF aircraft RU-M AG488 that he flew over Dieppe on a tactical reconnaissance mission 19August1942 during the ill fated Dieppe raid. 

I should have said should have been AG 470 Randall. I wonder what AG488 was…..mis-filed in my brain in any event 
Tim

 

 

Got it, I confirm I have the decals and the aircraft. As soon as I finish my current A-20 and B25 obsession I'll build the entire Dieppe set.

 

Randall

[SD45elect2000]

46 minutes ago, peebeep said:

In point of fact 'Dutch' Kindelberger and his team had been working on a single seat design (and experimenting with laminar flow) prior to the BPC approaching them to licence build P-40s. That's why they were able to respond in such a short space of time. The name was chosen for RAF service, but it's not at all unusual for other users to adopt their own designations or names. In the US aircraft names were colloquial, officially they had numbered nomenclature prefixed by a role letter. P = Pursuit, B = Bomber, C = Cargo etc. Names were not used for official purposes in the US armed forces.

Whilst the USAAF didn't show real interest until the appearance of the Transatlantic B/C, the USAAC had already adopted the A-36, P-51 and P-51A. The P-51A/P-51A is equivalent to the RAF Mustang I/II respectively. This would be well within the time frame referenced by Hurricane Boy.

With respect to operator numbers, I don't have references to hand, but I would imagine by far the biggest operator would be the USAAF, the Eighth Air Force alone used the type in huge numbers. There is a breakdown in Roger Freeman's 'Mighty Eighth, but my copy is buried deep in the archives somewhere.    

I wonder what the British would have named the Mitchell had it not already been named?

[peebeep]

17 minutes ago, SD45elect2000 said:

I wonder what the British would have named the Mitchell had it not already been named?

The name was colloquial and unofficial (although it would be in common usage) in the US as already explained. Officially the 'Mitchell' was B-25, the Brits simply picked up the name (although the Air Ministry would usually name bombers after towns, but not always). You could advance this argument for any US type and the answer is always the same - they have a number, not a name for official purposes. 

Edited April 23 by peebeep

[Dominic Thomas]

I think it would have been the B-25 London, in deference to the later M25 🙂
 

(with apologies to our friends from overseas who may not understand the reference)

Edited April 24 by Dominic Thomas
Just thought about the reference

[James -1313861]

I have airfix's 1/72 Mustang IV o  display in my collection and is the second best looking aircraft after my airfix typhoon Ib

[Dominic Thomas]

Would you be able to post some pictures?

[James -1313861]

Sorry no

[Ratch]

I've built a few Mustangs over the years.

North American P51 B-15-NA Mustang 1:72 Academy (1667)

 

Airfix 1/72 North American P-51 B Mustang (02066)

 

North American P-51D Mustang 1:72 Airfix 02089

Pilot Colonel Robert Montgomery's North American P-51D 'Mustang', LC-D, 79th FS, 20th FG, King's Cliffe, July 1944.

 

Heller/Airfix 1/24 (52906) P-51D Mustang “Bunnie”, s/n 44-15569, coded 7, flown by Capt. Roscoe C. Brown, Commanding Officer, 100th FS, 322nd FG. Ramitelli Airfield, Italy, June 1944 to April 1945.

 

Airfix 1/72 North American P-51D Mustang (02098)

44-13535 MC-R ‘Chattanooga Choo Choo’ 79th FS 20th FG King’s Cliffe November 1944, pilot 1st Lt. Edward F. (Pogie) Pogue, claimed 4 He 111’s, Bf 109 and Bf 110 all on the ground plus 4 damaged.

 

Airfix 1/72 North American P-51D Mustang (A01004) 44-13667 MC-T ‘Sneebo’ 79th FS 20th FG October 1944, pilot 1st Lt. Donald A. Sass.

 

Airfix 1/72 North American P-51D Mustang (A01004) LC-D "Gumpy" flown by Pilot Col. Robert Montgomery, Group CO 77th FS/20th FG, Kingscliffe, July 1944.

 

Italeri 1/72 North American Mustang I (090)

 

Tamiya 1/48 North American P-51D Mustang (61040-2500)

 

Airfix 1/48 North American P-51D Mustang (A05131)

 

Airfix 1/48 North American P-51D Mustang (A05131)

 

Airfix 1/72 North American P-51D Mustang (A55013)

[Hurricane Boy]

Jon replied to Hurricane Boy:

Firstly, I thank you for your reply, I meant as I said, I would like the chance to build an original Mustang, as was used by the RAF (before the USAAF got interested in them), whether it was powered by an Allison or a Roll Royce, but the idea of one of each would be even better.

secondly, while you are correct that the RAF had thought of buy the Curtiss p-40, and that the people who were asked to do it did say that they could design and build something better, they were still working to the specifications given by the procurement  offices needs, which was obviously exceeded, but the original designation was give as Mustang, which was given before the first plane was being built, and it was given in honour of the fact that it was being built in the US, which means that it should be recognised as the original title, shouldn’t it?

    Thirdly, I am fairly sure that your 1941 date is at least a year out, because, I am sure that the USAAF didn’t get interested until after the first conversions from the Allisons’s, to the Rolls Royce Merlin powered version, when the RAF made the Mustang X in mid to late 42, and while the USAAF were testing the Mustang X, it was the best part of a year, before they converted the B’s & C’s to use the Rolls Royce supercharged Merlin 66’s, which were then finally added to by the fully formed Mustang.

Fourthly, while I don’t have the total numbers of planes used by the British and the US, I do know that the RAF alone had 18 squadrons compared to the US’ 20 in the UK, but then there’s all of the other British Empire forces that used them in the Far East too, which I think would mean that your use of the US being “the major user”, something that is a close run thing, although, if you have the exact numbers used by both forces(US & RAF’s) then I am happy to learn.

    And finally, I am grateful for your comprehensive reply, and I look forward to your response to my reply, especially if you are adding to my knowledge base, which is fairly limited, because I am not a scholar, I am just an avid reader, and watcher of documentaries.

Hi Jon

I do whole heartedly agree with you that the Mustang was an orphan child for the USAAC. It was not requested by them nor built to their specs. They had their hands full getting the bugs worked out of the P-38, P-39 and P-47 so the Mustang had low/no priority. If it had not been for USAAC Assistant Air Attaché Major T Hitchcock and General Hap Arnold, the US may have never operated them.

One thing for sure is that the Hitchcock (USAAC) took great interest in the Mustang/Merlin marriage and sold Hap Arnold on the Merlin lash-up. The Americans were primarily influenced by the calculations done by Witold Callier, Chief Aerodynamic Engineer at RR Hucknell predicting a 440 MPH top speed at 25,600 feet (right on the money I say). Callier did his calculations after the legendary April 1942 declaration by RR Test Pilot Ron Harker that the Mustang coupled with the Merlin 61 would be a world beater. So, in July 1942 the USAAC ordered two Merlin 61 powered Mustang Prototypes from NAA and in August placed an order for 400 P-51B’s with NAA. All of this happen before either the first Mustang X flew (October 13, 1942) or the first XP-51B flew (November 20, 1942). Neither flight test affected the placement of the first P-51B orders in August because neither had flown yet.

The USAAC had ordered the A-36 into production in April 1942 after commandeering RAF aircraft from various production batches after Peral Harbour. They went on to order 1200 P-51A aircraft in August 1942 but only 310 were actually built before the P-51B took over on the production lines. This order may have been to keep the production line going until the P-51B was ready to take over.

The P-51/P51A/A36 aircraft served the USAAC primarily in North Africa and the CBI.

I will send along a pdf page from Air Progress/ Air Trails Review – 1942 that shows an XP-51 captioned XP-51 “Apache” and see if it gets posted.

Timeline

MAY 23, 1940 - Order Placed by BPC (and approved by the US Army on the condition that two aircraft would be handed over to them for trials)

SEPTEMBER 9, 1940 - Prototype Roll out (without engine)

OCTOBER 26, 1940 - Prototype First Flight

APRIL 23, 1941 - Production Aircraft first flight (AG345)

October 1941 - Delivery to the UK to Boscombe Down

May 1942 - Into Squadron Service with RAF

June 6, 1943 - A-36 into Service US

April 16, 1942 - A-36 order (500 aircraft) by USAAC

April 1942 - Go Ahead for RR Mustang X conversion (Hives)

June 1942 - P-51A order (310 aircraft) by USAAC

July 25,1942 - Order for two NAA Mustang Merlin Prototypes = XP-51B by USAAC

August 1942 - Order for NAA P-51B (400 aircraft) by USAAC

October 13, 1942 - First flight of Mustang X

November 20, 1942 - First flight of XP-51B