new lad on block Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 Hi All, what do members of the forum think about the status of refurbished or restored Hornby locos etc. Should they be classed as genuine or are they copies.As a collector I would like to buy items in the best original condition as possible.I have now got an interest in the older Rovex, Triang models some upto 50 to 60 years old.Some items are now being offered with reproduction boxes, others refurbished with new motors, transfers / decals. I also suspect some may be repaints. As well as lots of other smaller items, buffers, bogies wheels etc.At what stage does this loco become a copy?If we take a loco as four major component parts, Box, Body, Chassis & motor, how many have to be original to be classed as a genuine loco, and not a copy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony57 Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 Intresting topic.As someone who has the same interest, the correct chassis and body is important, motors can fail at any time providing it is replaced by an X04 or X03 or correct power bogie I can not see this as an issue. Updating the wheels to run on series 6 (100 guage) for me is also a non issue as I have done it myself. Replacing worn or missing decals for me is not a problem nor buffers and other small bit that got broken or lost. you can soon learn to tell if the decal have been replaced. Replacement boxes are used to try and con unsuspecting buyers but what about the documentation that also comes with the loco, a genuine new would have documentation with the correct stamps on it most replacemrents don't. As someone who has an interest in Wrenn you get to know whats what. For me the most important part it must as a whole thing be period correct, I have seen Transcon Class F in Canadian CN Zebra stripes on a pre 59 chassis which has Mk2 couplings for sale on ebay, the loco was issued in 70's on a chassis with Mk3c couplings. You need to have a good picture reference book so you can see what the model would look like when new off the production line. I take some of the write ups with a pinch of salt. Anything made 40 plus years ago can not be new, it maybe unrun but it is still not new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chrissaf Posted October 18, 2019 Share Posted October 18, 2019 Trigger's broom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Boot Sale Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 About 20 years ago a shop I went into, though not a model shop sold some trains, on the shelves were a number of yellow Triang boxes with TT guage models these had not been sold so are new but over 30 years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Trigger's broom. ...which is a rotable i.e. any or all parts can be replaced (handle, head or nail) and the thing remains a broom. Model railway units are also rotables, in that there is no single unique part that can be considered as its identifying item, such as the numbered chassis on a old car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rana Temporia Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 If you are collecting the early Tri-ang locos most if not all of the UK models were in self coloured plastic apart from cab roofs, buffer beams, smoke boxes etc so any with paint on the main part of the body will not be original. Also, the plastic used did not mean they the transfers used stayed stuck for very long so most of the early jinties, princesses, 3MT tanks etc. Are very unlikely to have original decals in good condition. Even the later heat printed locos are likely to have rubbings of the decals as these locos were produced as toys and were in the main treated as such. Some of the early locos produced overseas had painted bodies, I think the Australian maroon Baltic tank had a painted body. The black paint in particular that was used back then tends to rub off as well so you will probably have to touch that up, and if you find an exact match for the black they used please let me know as I usually have to re-do the whole area. Transfers are more difficult as the lining used was simplified so accurate depictions available from Fox transfers and others will not match the original. For the non prototypical locos such as the Transcontinental locos your only option is to purchase from online sources who produce these in small batches. For me, if I restore something to an approximation of it’s original condition it’s good enough. I don’t worry about the value of my ‘keepers’ as they are purely for my enjoyment, I don’t intend selling them. I may buy a loco for a better body, better chassis, new motor etc. And try to keep everything accurate to the right period. Who is to say it wasn’t next to the other one on the production line so it could have been put together with those parts in the factory. Motors, brushes, wheel insulators etc are all replaceable and wearable parts so i don’t worry about changing them. I also agree with Tony57, if I have better more modern wheels for the diesel/electric locos they get them. I have a Princess with a Mk2 motor that I rebuilt with an armature from an X03, I wouldn’t bother again as you have to dismantle the whole chassis to get the motor out and once it’s re-assembled you can’t tell, only I know and it was a pig of a job. They are your locos and you have to decide just how original you want them to be, unopened mint locos from the early years will cost accordingly and if you can’t get them out do you know if they work? It’s like buying an unopened Airfix or Kitmaster kit still in the shrink wrap, do you know what is actually in there because if you open it and look you have destroyed the value. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VESPA Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 Flying Scotsman???? What is the original loco. Boilers changed, tenders chaned and no doubt many other parts changed. To find genuine unfettled immaculate models is a hard job and takes money and patience when one does appear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new lad on block Posted October 19, 2019 Author Share Posted October 19, 2019 Hi, I did buy the first two volumes of 'The Story of Roves' and managed to borrow the rare 3rd. volume.They have given me a great insight into the early products of Triang Hornby.There are lots of informative pictures of some of the products produced.As as been mentioned models dating back so far are very hard to find in a reasonable condition, hence my question how far is eceptable in adding /refurbishing components. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new lad on block Posted October 19, 2019 Author Share Posted October 19, 2019 Hi Vespa, I acknowledge that Flying Scotsman,like Mallard has been available in several guises,over the years.I would think that most common variations, in both of those locos must have been covered.Hornby Flying Scotsman dates back 50 years, Mallard 40 years.Plenty out there for the colllector modeler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fazy Posted October 19, 2019 Share Posted October 19, 2019 I think Vespa is talking about the real full size flying Scotsman locomotive. which took the 100 MPH record.But nothing of her is original not even the name plates. But people still go to see her party because it was the fastest train once. Or was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 I never knew that volume 3 of Pat Hammond's The Story of Rovex (Cavendish publications) was rare! It would be good if Pat could find the time to get volume 4 finished and published.... But he is rather busy! 😉 There is also a nice book on Tri-ang Collectibles by Dave Angell... recommended! Nothing to do with me, just a good book! The same with Pat Hammond's various books, etc. And both authors are very nice people too! 😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new lad on block Posted October 20, 2019 Author Share Posted October 20, 2019 Hi Sarah, Last one on Ebay sold for £148.00.Amazon have 3 on their site from £216.00 to £450.00.Only 6 or 7 in libraries, througth-out UK.Hence I wanted to borrow one, to check contents etc, before buying one.Others Vol. 1 & 2 seem quite reasonable.Vol 1 was amended. with extra details, thats the one I have.Will check-out your recommendation for others. Thankyou for the information. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 Wow....that's some pricing... Obviously those with a copy are hanging onto it, so not many Spares floating about? My 3 volumes are very well used! I too have the second edition of volume one, with the extra addendum pages. I also have finally got a copy of the Cavendish Trix Trains volume, as well as the Hornby O Gauge and Dublo volumes from the Meccano series, again, Cavendish publications... The "THE HORNBY BOOK OF TRAINS, 25 YEAR EDITION: PROTOTYPES AND MODELS". Published by Hornby Railways in 1979, a large portrait format hardback with a colour dust cover (pictured) has a useful section listing the R numbers for most things made from 1952 until 1978/9, except for train sets./media/tinymce_upload/caea884ce5c21ba58a0dffe9b42538aa.jpg It is very good, as it shews the reuse of some R numbers... The rest of the book is quite good too!This is an illustration of the cover of the Dave Angell paperback book I referred to earlier.../media/tinymce_upload/ad5a4cc217f89d1d4dfba1d1a5058419.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LCDR Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 The other Rovex published book I use was a paperback "The first ten years" published in 1962. It contains a lot of useful stuff including an article by Terence Cuneo about weathering. Quite advanced for its time. It also covers servicing Tri-ang motors and chassis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rana Temporia Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 And don’t forget the paperback Tri-ang Hornby book pf trains with Flying Scotsman on the cover. 😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 The First Ten Years is a must have if you work with the older Tri-ang Railways stuff... Published in 1962....so it's contemporary! 😉 /media/tinymce_upload/904f401d16785dbaf4d74ae26b64b869.jpg The Tri-ang Hornby Book of Trains is from 1968, and mirrors the usual format of the old Hornby (Meccano) Book of Trains, in that it has prototype information, with a central section on the models, including some nice coloured pictures of the then past and present products... /media/tinymce_upload/bfeadd1432007041a8b6b03fc4e5189b.jpg Both are in our reference library, and are recommended. 😀 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buz Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Hi allI have a number of older locomotives some repaired some not if it has been repaired with genuine manufacturers spare parts then it is genuineIf it has some replica spare parts like my Dublo Deltic no unfortunately not the highly collectable one then it is restored.Re-wheeled to run on modern track using original manufactures parts in some cases you can do that then its still genuineUsing after market wheels like Romfords or Jacksons then its modified but really who cares as long as it can be used and works as well as it should.If it doesn't work and has useful repair parts on it then its useful junk.I personally don't collect trains so I am only interested in the locomotive looking complete and being usableI don't care if it has the wrong whistle though how you would tell is beyond me.So what if the pilot is painted black, and the inside you can't see is blue but was painted black because the version you have had a black pilot and the only one you could find was a blue one its still a genuine part.So what if the buffers on that North British 0-4-0 diesel loco are bigger than the original ones it looks better with the big buffers.So what if the original horn has been changed to a five chime because that's what the real one has and the manufacturer only gave it two.Like I said I am interested in does it look complete does it work as intended.The perceived collectors value is for all original locomotives even better if they have never been out of the box and never turned a wheel, sorry I Just don't see the point in that.They are only of any value when they are being used for what they where meant to be for.Which is providing personal entertainment through use.Sitting in a display case it just doesn't do anything for me.I might add passing it off as something it is not, which when buying second hand unfortunately you have to be aware of, is as they say just not cricket. but sadly it goes on.regards John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 My copy of Pat Hammond's volume 3.I have taken the dust jackets off, and keep them safe, as they would get shredded if left on, the amount of use the books get... /media/tinymce_upload/effd83a46b62059f6f0bcb607943ac1f.jpg/media/tinymce_upload/430222f9a0c38f5ca782bc1deacaefb5.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new lad on block Posted October 21, 2019 Author Share Posted October 21, 2019 Hi, Thankyou all for the recommendations of which reference books to look out for.Very gratefull for the advice.I seem to remember I may have bought the 25 years edition book, but most of my railway items are boxed-up,ready to go into my refurbished 'shed'.Bigger job than I thought, with not much progress througth summer.Still have most of the back catalogues to hand, as well as the 3 Rovex story ones.Have been collecting Hornby for a while but early this year decided to stop buying so many new releases and decided to go backwards.Most of my collecting was from from roughly lococs 1980s to present day then, 2018.Have not managed to aquire one, but at least I know what the first edition of the R52 Jinty should look like.Photos show what I consider is a copy, to which appears more genuine./media/tinymce_upload/1e7b18325fd38f85ed74b59c945d3cc7.JPG/media/tinymce_upload/5793bd3ef5813d0c6e7d6e40f6e226a4.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Hornby: The Official History...Like most Hornby productions, the Rovex and Tri-ang Railways time is not very well covered,but at least it gets a mention in this book.../media/tinymce_upload/ae3c8a83099c22eed6dc5545efa4798b.jpg/media/tinymce_upload/1087b55d65f404781fe890cc5e132a29.jpg/media/tinymce_upload/31b06b40dd804b9d5722c68434650238.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 RE: that Jinty. The top one is "wrong", as is said in the antiques trade... The couplings are the later mkIIb, with half moon counterweight on the bottom of the hooks. The body is the later style, after the lining was used, as the "keyhole" for access to the central sand box is missing.The brass safety valves only came into use after the introduction of the R.59 BR 3mt tank loco, so are far too late for the original Jinty. The body may even be Polystyrene Plastic! And the transfers look a bit big. The other, a picture from Pat's book I think, is correct, with the earlier couplings and body style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 The Hornby Book Of Trains... again, but this time it's our copy!/media/tinymce_upload/06495e5a5e91a1ac17364fa21dffe052.jpg The R. Number list.../media/tinymce_upload/bef354648391668d84b44b2a2fd8a510.jpg/media/tinymce_upload/b31fede967e777aa14c08fc06854e90a.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ruffnut Thorston Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 The Art of Hornby...Mainly Catalogues, and advertising illustrations... Again, no real coverage of the Rovex and Tri-ang Railways time, until 1965....and Tri-ang Hornby./media/tinymce_upload/fcb579829fc0f9f3762cf8fcd08a898e.jpg/media/tinymce_upload/f283f4a1d3c7e53955fed69396d5755b.jpg/media/tinymce_upload/7714e209db4b8bf5e12d1ab0056f3b51.jpg/media/tinymce_upload/0ec46b9e615a2e23e92311943ed35c21.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new lad on block Posted October 21, 2019 Author Share Posted October 21, 2019 Hi Sarah, Yes I agree with you,no sign of motor througth cab, no cutaway in front of water tanks.Before getting the books I may have seen one similar at a toy fair, and if told genuine, may have beleaved the trader.Of course they may have been told it was genuine, and then not researched it.I must try and find the 25 year book, so can catalogue the 'R' numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
new lad on block Posted October 21, 2019 Author Share Posted October 21, 2019 Hi Sarah, not worth spending time looking for it.On Ebay at £4.27 including free postage.Bought one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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