Noisy ballast

[Nick73]

Hi having tested my train on first part of ballasted track really noisy compared to unballested track section is this normal baseboard is 75mm polystyrene track laid straight onto polystyrene board and then ballast 

Nick

[walkingthedog]

Yes. Trains are noisy things. 

[NWR-Gordon-4]

I like the sound that trains* produce though. It's very charming to listen to.

 

* When I say trians, I mean in a general concept, as high speed train, diesel or electrical multiple unit or a locomotive pulling coaches and / or wagons (Rolling stock).

 

GNR-Gordon-4 (HF)

[LCDR]

Which ballast are you using? 

 

As a general rule genuine stone ballast mixed with PVA directly on to the base board will go hard and in fact will help to transmit sound from the trains into the base board, which will almost certainly act as a drum. I use cork tiles under the sleepers which will deaden the sound somewhat but once I apply stone ballast and glue some of the sound will return.

 

Personally I quite like the sound of trains running, so it doesn't worry me.

[pendeenpete]

The major problem with "noisy ballast" that I have found is that some Bachmann locos have a propensity towards wheel issues that cause a not so lovely ryhmic thumping, which replicates wheel flats on real life locos.

Never had it with Hornby, but always have some trepidation when trying a new loco for the first time, think when the wheel was invented the consensus was that wheels work best when they are round!

[Nick73]

It was woodland scenics medium ballast with pva its twice as loud as the unballested track its like a scrapping noise would excess pva glue on the rails do it should the rails be cleaned off after ballesting? 

[walkingthedog]

Now you have explained better we can help.

 

 

Thoroughly clean the rails and make sure none of the ballast is high enough for the wheels or any part of the loco to touch it. Run a wagon along with you finger and feel for any lumps.

[Nick73]

what's best to clean the track? 

[LCDR]

Let us assume (a) you are using modern track with nickel silver rail, and (b) the PVA has already dried hard.

 

Your first attempt should be with a track rubber (sold by Hornby, Gaugemaster or Peco) however this is a mild abrasive and may not shift hard PVA.

 

Your next attempt should be to use a VERY fine emery cloth or emery paper, and the finer the better and clean the top and inner side of each rail. This may scratch the rail so the lighter touch the better.

 

If this doesn't shift it you may need to scrape the top and inner faces of the rail where persistent contamination still exists. A modellers scapel will usually suffice.

 

Ideally the rails needed to be cleaned while the glue was still soft. A damp cloth is usually adequate.

[WilliamDavid]

I used PVA on rubber track roll on my first layout, and the noise was unbearabl, especially with some Bachmann locos.

I pulled it all up and replaced it with cork under the rubber, and used Copidex. Not noisy now.

[Nick73]

I'm using hornby trains I've ordered a track rubber il try that first it's that bad I'm even considering changing the polystyrene board to plywood board which wont go down well after all the work I've done and will properly have to change how i want my layout scenery etc 

[LCDR]

I hadn't fully appreciated that your baseboard top was polystyrene, which is an unusual material for this purpose. 

Because polystyrene is hard solid material I might expect its sound deadening properties will be poor. I once built a layout of three hardboard faced doors and these were very noisy. MDF is also noisy.

 

Plywood being a timber product does have a modest sound deadening property, my present layout is on plywood, with a cork layer under the track, but I haven't yet ballasted this layout although previous layouts on  plywood were ballasted using fine bird cage grit, sieved to remove the larger bits, and fixed with PVA glue. 

 

I have used building fibreboard which is very soft and does act as a sound deadening material but its mechanical strength is not good and tends to distort unless massively braced underneath and thge edges damage easily. 

[pgcroc]

Hi

Although my plywood baseboard is fully built, track design is still ongoing.

I have read many articles regarding excess noise from the track.

So my plan is to cover the whole baseboard with 3mm cork sheet (already purchased) and fixed down withj Copydex.

Then put cork strips under the rails. Ballast next, not sure if I will use PVA or something else, more Copydex? This will keep the ballast away from the plywood.

I have no idea if this will work but I will give it a go.

(The cork sheet could hide wires from building lighting etc.)

[walkingthedog]

If you ballast track it will be  noisy no matter what you put under the track. I like the noise, railways are noisy things. You will get excessive noise if you run trains too fast. 

[Sultan]

Fo rbest results to reduce noise from teh track I would suggest using woodland scenics foam trackbed.  Ti sis glued to any baseboard using a rubber compound based adhesive which does not dry roak hard liek PVA and thsu transmits less sound.  You can then ballst your trackin the usual manner suning loose chippings and PVA.  Try not to get ballast stuck to the baseboard at the edge of the foam to maintain the separartion .There are plenty of videos on YouTube showing this method.

With regard to noisy locos and Bachmann in partricular being quoted above I have a very noisy Hornby sentinel that has a regulay knock knock knock when running.  I also have noisy dapol locos.  It seems to be mainly associated with diesel locos and must be something inherent in the design of the drive train.  I have heard this knocking sound referred to as 'cogging' and relating to grit or other debris in the gear train or possibly a damaged cog.  If you have the skill and patience you could strip down the bogie and inspect.   I recently returned a class 66 to Bachmann and it has come back running much better.

[96RAF]

Cogging is where the gear train adopts a harmonic due to an interaction between a combination of lash between the gears and magnetic effects within the motor - this can be described as a torque ripple where the gear train winds up then unloads, and repeats. This usually happens at low speed with a high gear ratio such as you see in your car if you go too slow in too high a gear, the thing jerks until you match motor speed with road speed better.

 

The effect can be seen in magnetic clutches where the magnets get in phase then out of phase with each other causing the same jerkiness until the transmission halfs match speed better and the magnets lock to each other.

 

In your loco the cause is likely to be uneven wear of gears maybe because they are not run in enough or they are worn out. Some motors cope better with this than others.

[Sultan]

@RAF96

Thank you for your explanantion of cogging.  In both the case o fteh Sentinel and the 66 the knocking is certainly not due to a worn out motor as they hardly get or have had much use at all.  It may possibly be some running in is needed. Interestingly when I see other locos on layouts on YouTube etc they dont display this problem.

In the video below on my Liskwithiel Road facebook page you can hear the knocking when the Sentinel starts working up hill.

https://www.facebook.com/766345680042627/videos/770136766330185/

[EnGee]

Unless you have used top of the range marine grade PVA then normal pva glue is NOT waterproof. Even if it's dried rock hard, a warm damp cloth laid on top of the track will soon soften the glue which can then just be wiped off quite easily.

[Nick73]

/media/tinymce_upload/2eaa65cabb3abe91edecea6e8339d54e.jpg/media/tinymce_upload/cc8e6fe439226dcde5f9a88bc2686232.jpg

Reason i went for a polystyrene board was to make a river couldn't think a way to do it on a plywood board was worried would make it too flimsy and thought polystyrene/insulation board would be quiet in theory guess i was wrong im gonna try a few things not sure if the train im trying is helping as it's a big empty plastic body and another reason was for lightweight as using the spare room and will have family staying 3/4 times a year did initially buy a 8x4 sheet of plywood but was a struggle to get up the stairs but might have to resort back to this and work out a way of doin the river 

[Railtwister]

A friend tried extruded Polystyrene foam insulation as the baseboard under the new section of his layout, and it amplified the noise considerably, leading to the conclusion that a hard foam board is going to be naturally louder than a base made from wood. However, I would expect an extruded board to be noisier than a beaded foam board since it is essentially one solid piece and should transmit vibration better than compressed beads.

[81F]

 My two Replica railways 2251s make the same noise as illustrated in RAFs email when pulling uphill. To my ears it is remanicent of a steam loco working hard. Although my 00 section is not ballasted yet I notice that it is noisier on the plywood sections when compared with the MDF despite the plywood being used on an open frame baseboard.

[Nick73]

decided to scrap the polystyrene and go with 18mm plywood board hoping to make a start tomorrow got a 8x4 sheet in the garage got a idea on how to continue my river that i started with the polystyrene board just hope it works  🤔

[Nick73]

/media/tinymce_upload/402d901557f698d6779749b7977409eb.jpg/media/tinymce_upload/e296f6b4d3125273f0f9fee1a570beb2.jpg

so decided to scrap the polystyrene and go plywood and glued/inserted polystyrene to make the river well pleased with how its turned out