Why are spares so hard to come by?

[Ande P]

Hi. So, without getting into the debate about Mazak rot and who is to blame, my question is simply this. Why. When there are known issues with certain locos are Hornby as the manufacturer, not still producing replacement components. As I can tell the spares community does quite well and so is this just the way they want to work? Strikes me that if Hornby setup a spares division to build alternative replacement parts for old models this may actually be quite lucrative or is this just rose tinted glasses?

[ColinB]

I have saying about this for ages. In their defense making and storing spares is expensive and as every loco is unique they would need quite a lot. The thing I cannot understand is why they don't make spares for the things we know will fall off, buffers etc. Then we have mazak rot, they did make replacement chassis for the Royal Scot/Patriot but that loco has so many faults perhaps they felt guilty. I just class Hornby as a toy company which internally designs a toy, in this case a loco, and then moves onto the next one. Unfortunately they don't charge toy prices.

[Tony57]

My personal thoughts on this issue it is more to do with the country where the items are manufactured rather than Hornby. Having to keep buying a whole new item is better for the country's balance sheet than producing small replacement parts to keep existing items going.

[rpjallan]

The thing I cannot understand is why they don't make spares for the things we know will fall off, buffers etc.

I just class Hornby as a toy company which internally designs a toy, in this case a loco, and then moves onto the next one. Unfortunately they don't charge toy prices.

I tend to agree with this but I don’t think Hornby are the only manufacturer that is guilty of this…

[The son of Triangman]

Spares have been a problem since the move to Chinese production was mooted, previous to that Hornby supplied a full range of parts for it's models as did Tri-ang before it. Tri-ang and later on Hornby had a dedicated famous service centre at Albert Street, at one time.

It's one of the main reasons I seldom buy new Hornby, preferring the blue boxed models as the rival company offers full parts support, even on it's older products.

[The son of Triangman]

A Tri-ang dealer spares list, from the days when you just phoned the factory up for the parts you wanted.

[Aussie Fred]

Okay, so what is mazak rot. I have found Mazak and Mazac on Wiki, but don't understand how it affects locos.

[Going Spare]

I do not have the precise details to hand but basically metal components such as chassis blocks and tender chassis frames can be made from an alloy. If the mix of ingredients forming that alloy is corrupted, over time the alloy will expand or crumble (rot). There is a comprehensive list of all known affected models from all manufacturers on the RM web.

[Rana Temporia]

The annoying thing for me relating to Mazak rot is that it is a well known problem and has been for years. From toy/model cars in the 1950s to Grafar locos in the 1960s to Lima locos in the 1970s. Why is it also such a recent problem other than using cheap materials or incompetence in materials specification? No-one would use cellulose acetate plastic today so why mazak? If these were pocket money price items it’d be less of an annoyance.

[Bulleidboy]

I think ColinB hit the nail on the head - storage. If you took Hornby's current models (those you can physically go out and buy now) plus those they have made over the last, say twenty years, there would be literally thousands of spare parts. All would have to have their own labelled bin, and a member of staff to look after it. Sounds very straightforward, but it would require a large space and probably not cost effective. Personally, I think a lot of Hornby spares comes from irreparable returns that are just broken down into there component parts.

[AndyMac1707817969]

For spares you need to hold a large inventory of stock. Each item has relatively little value and even less profit. You then have to employ and pay staff to manage these. Many costs are the same whether you are selling a £200 loco or a £2 bit of plastic. Let’s face facts even being charged £2 for some spares would bring howls of discontent from some. There is no money in it and what percentage of people who purchase Hornby locos how many are actually fixing their own.

 

You get this all the time. For spares to be available an item has to be economical to repair. People blame lack of spares for the throw-away culture but a lack of spares for any item is not the cause it’s an effect. There is little demand for say parts to fix a washing machine if a part is going to be £50. As most people would have to pay someone to fit it then you are probably looking at maybe several hours labour. All that is more than the cost of a new machine. I guess part of the issue is new items have become too cheap if they were a lot more expensive then they would be economical to fix. Again people seem to think others should work for peanuts so they can have what they want for as little as possible but it just does not work that way. They days of someone fixing something and calling it £5 for the time is long gone.

Hornby do not own their own production facility so can’t produce parts on demand like they did when they were done in Margate. I am guessing additional parts are produced at the time of manufacture of the item but once they are gone it’s not economical to produce anymore. Hornby are running a business and have enough problems, they don’t need a loss making spare parts division.

[ColinB]

Trouble is AndyMac if you don't supply the spares your item becomes a "throw away" if something breaks. Now if the loco was £50.00 then most people would accept that. The current Evening Start is nearly £300 you are not going to be tempted to throw that away. So basically your product becomes worthless on the second hand market. I know in the automotive market if you don't supply spare parts your product becomes less desirable. Hornby could do a lot to improve things like using things like common motors across models. I even noticed on my latest Hornby Dublo City of Lichfield (which incidentally is badly made and has a fault) they even decided to wire the 4 pin plug upside down, which means they have to keep two variants of the circuit board.

[ellocoloco]

I think that questions needs to be asked as to why so many people need spare parts.

Since I came back to Hornby in 2004 - following their acquisition of Electrotren - I have bought 16 powered items. From Electrotren - a 303, 316(4), 321(4), 352, 440R, 592 (3), and a 594 plus the Capt. Tom 66 from Hornby. Of these, one suffered damage and two have suffered failures. My first 316 arrived with several broken lift rings and rather than return it to the model shop in Andorra it came from I ordered spares from Lendons. The same 316 and my 594 have had split gears. Spares for the 316 were available from Lendons and those for the 594 were unavailable so I used slot car pinions. One of my 592s came with Mazak rot but as I chose to buy a failed unit I'm not counting that one. Since 2004 I have only needed spares on three occasions and availability was 66%. I have had three other failures which were repaired without additional parts.

I have, however, bought a number of spares for other projects such as my repainted 321 and the 440R I converted from AC to DC. My previous two projects have without a doubt used up precious spares that might have been of use to someone who has actually suffered a failure or accident with their model. I know from other posts on this forum and others that there are many people like me. Often they are looking for coupling mechanisms to update a chassis but this is not what a spares service should be for.

As to non mechanical spares, I think many are responsible for their own issues. I base this on watching models being handled at the shows I have been to and often see locos and rolling stock handled in a rough fashion. Once a model has arrived with the end user there should never be any cosmetic damage. Any that does occur will be through operator carelessness - rough handling, careless operation and general thoughtlessness. Much of this is exacerbated with age - either too young or too old. If you add the detail pack, then modify the box so as not to cause damage putting the model away! If you have poorly laid track, then don't run an expensive model at speed! If your layout is in the attic, don't leave the hatch open! Model trains aren't like children or pets. They are not difficult to take care of.

 

[508006]

I think 1 of the msin reasons that so many modellers are beeding soares ( myself included ) is that parts do not last forever as much we'd like them to and will eventually wear out.

As an example, right now I am needing 2 sets of connecting rods for the hornby loco drive 9F as the rods that keep all 5 axles in sync are worn out and have loose rivets or pins ( whatever it is that allows the rods to articulate ), I also need several motors ( mostly X4026 type and a few class 121 motor bogies to repower some of my projects for which these bogies would be ideal. The main problem here is that because hornby do not produce the brushes and dprings for motors like the X4026 ( suitable for A3/A4, Princess class and Merchant Navy locomotives to name a few ) it means that modellers have to pay almost £20 per motor just to get 1 loco back in service.

Now if your in my position and have 4 Steam locomotives awaiting motors then thats about £80 just for 4 motors, add onto that the class 121 motor bogies + 2 motor bogies for my HST then I will be easily looking at between £150 - £200 inclusive of postage although adding in the parts for the 2 x class 9F chassis and and 8F chassis which also needs parts that will easily take my paets spend over the £200 level.

Now here's the kicker, if hornby were to produce the brushes and springs for the 5 pole motors ( which are easy to change if a little fiddly ) then that would be mush easier for those modellers who could be in the same position as me and could only replace parts on a bit by bit basis instead of being able to buy all the parts required in 1 go and setting to works once the parts arrive. Also the brushes and springs would allow those like myself to get the locos simply needing replacements for the 5 pole motors to get them changed, refitted in the loco, body back on, loco on the rails, test and if working properly the loco is back in service in about 30 minutes and at a fraction of the price of brand new motors.

My apologies if this seems like a rant and maybe it probably is but it is aimed at hornby themselves because providing parts such as brushes and springs for the 5 pole motors would go a long way to helping modellers like myself to keep their locos in service + also if brushes and springs are still available for ringfield motors, why not make them available for the new 5 pole motors.

I think it is something that hornby could do with at the very least considering the possibility of doing.

[Going Spare]

@508006

The dearth of some replacement parts is a problem, I accept, and it is at times difficult to follow Hornby's logic, but in mitigation, it can be extremely difficult to estimate what the demand for a particular component is likely to be and keeping spares 'just in case' is very costly. Probably the major downside to moving production to China is the inflexibility that results.

Hornby's manufacturing contractors buy-in complete motors - why should Hornby be required offer replacement internal components for the very, very small minority of owners who would even contemplate stripping out a can motor? As far as I can see, Hornby do not now list Ringfield brushes & springs, nor those for X03/X04 - the likes of Peters Spares have commissioned them because they are vastly easier for modellers to change and the demand is therefore there.

All well and good if an available Hornby spare suits a modelling project, but why should Hornby be criticised for not having stock for such a project which does not concern an after-sales requirement? (And even if it is available, purchasing it is denying it to another customer with a genuine after-sales requirement.)

Put your thoughts direct to Hornby.

[Tony57]

I feel that Hornby needs to review its production and production of spare parts plans.

The production plans have to include standard parts and part numbers that includes a standard motor the will fit multiple locomotives and to some extent fit the back catalogue of China made models.

The spare parts plan needs to look into wear failure rate of parts and how long in years replacement parts will be available for each model, us owners need to know. It is no good producing models where the moving parts wear out quickly and replacements are not available, people will stop buying and Hornby's name will suffer as a result.

Going by the number of new locos being sold for spares and/or repairs on ebay the life span of a expensive Hornby Loco today is less than 3 years, this is not good enough Hornby. I think it's time that Hornby starts to run production models on a test track till they fail so as to iron out moving part failures.

 

[LTSR_NSE]

Hornby is far from a cause of (or even alone in pandering to) society’s demand for a cheap throw-away culture (by moving production to China & changing to non-serviceable parts).

Obviously from a business model selling products that wear out and need replacing increases the quantity sold, (provided customers are willing to replace) otherwise the alternative is more expensive but more reliable/self-serviceable items.

Considering that the world’s resources are finite, they will only continue to provide long term life-support if society moves backwards towards a more sustainable and less throw-away model. However society will have to accept a desire to pay more per item for this. Otherwise shortsightedness and demand for cheaper prices will simply continue to reduce the number of generations able to play with toys.

Unfortunately whilst Hornby’s prices aren’t (what most people imagine to be) cheap, they are far from what would be needed to support a more sustainable and self-serviceable future.

Hopefully society will change and bring Hornby with them, I doubt it.

[What About The Bee]

During my career, making unique spare parts available to a client was always a boon to my bottom line. Afterall, how much is a spare part worth to a client if his machine is down? His production hobbled, his bottom line affected. The short answer is a tremendous markup, even more so if it is something we made in our machine shop.

This has also heightened my awareness of having the right spares on the shelf, for that magical moment when I might need it.

Here is my little tale of woe. Lendons has the component! I am thrilled. It could be sitting on my shelf, not Lendons' shelf. Ready to go!! Alas, Lendons will not ship internationally. Tantalizingly out of reach.

Bee

[LTSR_NSE]

@bee depending on your need vs cost - use a freight forwarder?

[What About The Bee]

Hi LT&SR

The only reason for it to sit on my shelf is insurance, should I ever actually need it. At the time I need it, if ever, the spare will likely be unobtainable.

I will look into a freight forwarder to see if that is viable.

Bee

[Ande P]

thanks everyone, great input/debate. My feeling was on the line of ColinB - these are not 'cheap' toys; I mean they are to me I guess as I buy 2nd hand and run the gauntlet but the point is that if Hornby or whoever else don't have the means to service the spares markets; it surprises me that someone in China or wherever hasn't agreed to provide this for them or indeed worked out how to build replacement parts for the known models and sell them for peanuts on amazon. i.e. the T9 (if anyone knows where to find a spare chassis for this hit me up :D ), or Class 31's that seemed to be decimated by Mazac in the 2000s. The throw away culture is somewhat to blame I see that; but you have to provide the means for people to do better...without alternatives of course its going to be thrown in the bin. The policy of sell it and hope for the best stinks... especially when some of you folks are paying upwards of £200-300 for a roll of the dice on new locos - that has got to smart.

The plastic body shells and other smaller parts are another story; surely when producing these things you make a bulk load and put some in storage; its not like spares for model trains take up a great deal of space, sorry those that made that argument I don't buy into that school of thought. A lean to shed with one wall stacked high could hold thousands of replacement parts. The reality is its a commercial business; and like all businesses sometimes the cost effectiveness will always outweigh the end user. It's just a shame.

 

[ColinB]

Ande P I know how you feel I have a Princess Elizabeth where the chassis had the infamous rot. I regularly look at EBay for a replacement chassis but the closest I get is a replacement complete chassis for the price of virtually what my loco is worth. I agree with the comments about stocking spares, I build classic Triumph motorcycles and there is a guy in Essex that has barns of spares. All his spares are at a premium, but as he says if you want the part you will pay it. You will probably moan but if you need it, you will pay. Bachmann seems to have no issue supplying spare parts, where they limit it to them and them alone, so they must think it is worth it. If it is a £200 loco and you break the valve gear, even £50 is cheaper than a new loco. Some people and if you look at a lot of the posts on this thread are devoid of forward thinking, if you want your product to die, just have a ton of quality issues and then don't supply spares to fix them. We have plenty of examples of this in our past.

[ColinB]

The one that really does get me upset is the various m2 and m2.5 "stepped" screws that are used to hold the body, bogies and drawbars and also conrod bolts. These cost pennies to produce but they could sell for at least £2.00 a go. They are virtually impossible to source as spares although I did manage to get some stainless steel ones from China. They are also the things that go missing if you have to take the loco apart.

[threelink]

This will sond like an old fogey harking back to "the good old days" but I recall a time when things like power tools often came with a few spares like replacement brushes and brush springs. I wonder whether manufacturers might consider supplying a few spares with new locos? If nothing else it might serve to convince customers that the manufacturers have confidence in the longevity of their products.

[Topcat2018]

I was very surprised to learn that Mazak rot (or zinc pest to give it its other name) still occurs. I thought this was a problem that existed in Mazak until the 1950s/60s and was caused by poor manufacturing practices such as allowing the alloy to be contaminated with metals such as lead that compromised its crystalline structure.

CoIinB refers to a Princess Elizabeth chassis that has this problem. What vintage would this loco be and does the problem happen in modern locos and other rolling stock?