Locos stuck changing circuits

[Tony57]

Hi Ralphy

Yes there should be a gap, the peco IRJs are the best ones to use as they put a small plastic block between the rail ends to stop the ends meeting.

Last year there were a number of posts on this forum about defective points, you could have one of these defective points in you set up which could causing you issue.

[DC-345471]

Looking at your picture the inner loop crossover point is sandwiched between two other points unlike the other loops which have none or only one. This means the point on the inner loop is reliant on both of the other two points making a good blade contact or the inner rail on the inner loop crossover point may be getting a weak power feed.

Personally if using dead frog points I do not use insulating joiners between crossovers then I can use one power supply to drive across tracks then stop the loco change the points and continue with the dedicated controller. This avoids dead spots and also having to balance the power from two supplies during cross over. Your plan would allow a loco to drive from the outside loop right to the inside loop using just one controller. The only thing you have to do is change both crossover points together and why would you not do that anyway?

[Brew Man]

Hi Ralphy

Yes there should be a gap, the peco IRJs are the best ones to use as they put a small plastic block between the rail ends to stop the ends meeting.

Last year there were a number of posts on this forum about defective points, you could have one of these defective points in you set up which could causing you issue.

The OP has said in his first post that he has tried swapping the point but to no avail. The problem persists.

 

 

[Ralphy51]

P-Henny

Noted ! Hopefully this comes through ok

[Ralphy51]

DC - this sounds like a good idea . I was under the impression that I needed to use the insulating fishplates and you’re right that each pair of points needs to be open at the same time anyway .

Adding regular fishplates would absolutely eliminate any dead spot in crossing over .

If I do that and with my HMDC controls and I’m wondering there’s any electrical conflict between circuits if I’m using say Rad3 control to move to Rad2 with Rad2 set to zero speed as long as the direction is the same.

Any thoughts on that scenario please ?

[Tony57]

The straight answer is no there is no conflict,.

I am a DC user and have had 4 circuit track set ups with multiple crossings and have never suffered any issues when crossing from one track to another, you turn off one controller and use the other to control the crossing, it can be controller on the outer circuit or the controller on the inner circuit.

[Ralphy51]

Thanks Tony57 . I’ll try this out because so far I’ve been unable to resolve the issue despite the many interesting suggestions that other forum members have made .

[Fishmanoz]

Hi Ralphy, having just reviewed the sticky Getting Started ….. topic again, I believe your problem is covered there quite explicitly and includes some very helpful diagrams.

To point you to the right place in the guide, let me give where specifically you need to look:

• Start at Section 5
• read through section 5 until you get to the two oval/two controller detail
• while you have 3 ovals and 3 controllers, you can think about it as 2 lots of 2 ovals/controllers, being your middle and inner ovals and your middle and outer
• now note particularly the link wire going from one side of the top point in an oval to the other side of that point in the same oval in the 2 controller case. This is what I believe you are missing
• without that link wire, if the top and bottom points in the oval are set to siding and crossover (rather than straight through around the oval), the whole right side of the oval is dead, isolated from the power connection on the left side of the oval

So now look at your own dead track when the locos stop, is that your issue? It will be very easy to tell with a multimeter but you can also figure it without by placing a loco and seeing when it will run and when it won’t. If I’m right, a link wire across one of the points isolating your dead section will fix it.

Am I right, or is this just more unhelpful rubbish?

[Ralphy51]

The straight answer is no there is no conflict,.

I am a DC user and have had 4 circuit track set ups with multiple crossings and have never suffered any issues when crossing from one track to another, you turn off one controller and use the other to control the crossing, it can be controller on the outer circuit or the controller on the inner circuit.

Tony57 - thanks for this. I have tested using standard fishplates instead of the insulated ones on one pair but because I’m controlling via a tablet and HMDC, it initially seemed to work but then started to short out. Strangely, the only circumstances in which it seems to work is if both circuits are in fact on in the same direction rather than one being set to zero and once the loco reaches the destination circuit the two speeds seem to become aggregated. However when reversing back through the points ( and switching both directions on the control) the option to use either control doesn’t seem to exist and choosing the destination control to slow the loco causes a short. I appreciate that your system works fine on this basis but can I ask if you’re using HMDC or traditional analogue.

 

 

 

 

[Ralphy51]

Hi Ralphy, having just reviewed the sticky Getting Started ….. topic again, I believe your problem is covered there quite explicitly and includes some very helpful diagrams.

To point you to the right place in the guide, let me give where specifically you need to look:

• Start at Section 5
• read through section 5 until you get to the two oval/two controller detail
• while you have 3 ovals and 3 controllers, you can think about it as 2 lots of 2 ovals/controllers, being your middle and inner ovals and your middle and outer
• now note particularly the link wire going from one side of the top point in an oval to the other side of that point in the same oval in the 2 controller case. This is what I believe you are missing
• without that link wire, if the top and bottom points in the oval are set to siding and crossover (rather than straight through around the oval), the whole right side of the oval is dead, isolated from the power connection on the left side of the oval

So now look at your own dead track when the locos stop, is that your issue? It will be very easy to tell with a multimeter but you can also figure it without by placing a loco and seeing when it will run and when it won’t. If I’m right, a link wire across one of the points isolating your dead section will fix it.

Am I right, or is this just more unhelpful rubbish?

Fishmanoz - I am assure you that none of the suggestions that I’m receiving could be considered to be “ unhelpful rubbish” and thanks for taking the time to respond 😄 I’ve re-read the Section 5 stuff and fully appreciate the situation where points can create a dead zone and I don’t seem to have that situation. Unless a neighbouring set of points on Rad 1 is not switching cleanly. ( Another forum member has suggested this but I haven’t yet tested ) I’ve also checked with a multimeter and can’t detect a dead zone. Just to recap, moving from Rad 3 to Rad 2 can be done at lower speeds than from Rad 2 to Rad 1. This happens with a variety of locos. A slight nudge on a stranded loco gets it moving again. The tender and loco are always on different sides of the points joint when this happens .

 

 

 

 

[ntpntpntp]

@ralphy going back to basics, have you turned the power up and put a multimeter across the rails at the place where the loco stops? Check you have a voltage all the way through, especially from the frog onward? Could it be dirty point blades or a broken link wire under the frog?

[edit] I remember we suggested earlier that you get a multimeter, and you said you've ordered one? It will really help diagnose the problem.

So at present you have isolating joiners between the crossover points by the look of the photos? That's how I've always done it: electrically separate the ovals. Granted that with dead frog points you can kind of "get away with" not having the isolating joiners but I just don't like having power back-feeding into points from the frog end because I use mostly live frogs.

Could this be as simple as bad blade contact on one or the other point of the crossover? I often just use a pair of snipe-nose pliers to gently bridge the blade and stock rail if something get's stuck in this sort of location. If that get the loco going then you know it's a blade problem.

One other thing to ask: is it all locos or just the one in the photos? I'm wondering if maybe the pickups are using the "American" style of only collecting on one side of the loco and one side of the tender? That can cause problems when running between two different controllers.

Oh and please heed @P-Henny's post on the previous page about separating your reply from the quoted text, it is difficult to distinguish your reply when everything is marked with the grey bar grinning It took me a couple of goes to learn that on this forum you must move the cursor down well below the text you're quoting before you start typing (this forum works differently to others I frequent)

[Tony57]

Hi

I am standard DC. DC is DC the principles are the same. The only difference is the way you control the movement.

Just read you post to me you got to have a faulty point.

I would remove the points and do a simple power test, I would take the leads from the transformer to the track and put one lead on the heel end on the right hand rail with the point switched to the turn turn the power on and put the other lead on to the right hand side toe end (short rail) of the turn side and see if you get a spark if a spark is seen than that point is ok if not the point is faulty. do this to both points.

[Fishmanoz]

Ralphy, you misunderstand me. My question is whether my own post is unhelpful rubbish, not other people’s suggestions.

Then I thought it might be a much shorter dead zone due to adjacent points, one being the crossover and one not. But I think you are saying that’s not the case?

[Ralphy51]

Fishmanoz thanks for the prompt response .

I’ve now tried removing the adjacent points to the crossover on R1 and swapping out the R1 crossover point with a standard curve so that the R1 is effectively a siding from R2. I’ve still used insulated fishplates .

power is just after the loco passes over the fishplates .

The problem still remains and locos will not pass over the fishplates at low speeds onto R1 and yet the geometry is the same as from R3 to R2 .

I just can’t fathom it out !

[ntpntpntp]

@ralphy the sooner your multimeter arrives and you can check for and locate the dead spot(s) the better grinning It'll be something simple like a dodgy point blade or fishplate somewhere between the point and the power feed.

In the meantime have a play with a simple pair or pliers as I mentioned in my previous post. Use it to bridge one of the insulating fishplates while the loco is stopped over them, that will reveal if it's just one side of the power path which is dead. Go back as far as the power feed and check each fishplate and point blade.

[Ralphy51]

Thank you for the many suggestions , I am now pleased to say that I have identified the problem if not yet the solution.

I considered what the 3 circuits had and did not have in common and it occurred to me that it might be because I am using 2 separate HMDC6000 units ( capable of operating 4 circuits).

Rad3 and Rad2 share one unit and Rad1 is on a separate unit with one spare circuit.

This morning I switched the connections for Rad3 with Rad1 and this cured the handover from 2 to 1 and shifted the problem to the connection between 3 and 2.

Not sure why this happens and would be interested to hear from anyone on the possible cause. I’ll recheck settings and may also check out the HMDC chats to see if anyone has experienced the same problem.

Thanks again for your interest and help so far.

[Fishmanoz]

So it occurs when you are going from one controller to the other and specifically when the loco is on one controller and the tender on the other.

I’m certainly no HM600 expert, no practical experience and just the basic reading. That said, it seems to me you have the polarities reversed between the 2 of them. Consequently, when they are connected via the loco and tender, it causes a short circuit and one or both of them shut down.

What happens if you swap the track connections on the one where only the single circuit is being used on Rad3?

[96RAF]

Have a look at this control screen grab. If each channel of the 6000 is set as shown a short will occur. No different from a std DC set up.

[Fishmanoz]

Rob, thanks for that.

It’s not between channels in a single 6000 though, it’s between different 6000s.

[96RAF]

The 6000/app short detection sensitivity is a tad sensitive and there is a request in to tweak it back a bit. It is a balance between the app detecting a short and taking control before the PSU goes into full self-protect mode.

[Ralphy51]

So it occurs when you are going from one controller to the other and specifically when the loco is on one controller and the tender on the other.

I’m certainly no HM600 expert, no practical experience and just the basic reading. That said, it seems to me you have the polarities reversed between the 2 of them. Consequently, when they are connected via the loco and tender, it causes a short circuit and one or both of them shut down.

What happens if you swap the track connections on the one where only the single circuit is being used on Rad3?

Fishmanoz It’s not shorting out and the polarities are the same . As I say , if I increase the speed it works. Just no obvious reason why it’s only at this point. Thanks .

 

 

 

 

[Ralphy51]

The 6000/app short detection sensitivity is a tad sensitive and there is a request in to tweak it back a bit. It is a balance between the app detecting a short and taking control before the PSU goes into full self-protect mode.

just to clarify that it’s not shorting but locos stop unless driven across at higher speeds than I expect . Crossing within two circuits on one HM6000 fine at low speeds but crossing from one HM6000 to another stops unless speed is higher .

 

 

 

 

[LTSR_NSE]

@ralphy what you are describing is exactly the scenario when a loco only picks up power through left or right track and tender picks up through the opposite track. When your tracks share the controller’s power supply the loco & tender are still maintaining a circuit at the point where the tracks are separated by insulated joiners.

However when your tracks are powered by separate controller’s power supplies insulated joiners prevent the circuit being maintained. The reason that increased speed of loco disguises this occurrence is that the first tender wheel crosses the insulated joiner through momentum and re-establishes the circuit quickly enough to prevent the loco stalling.

The solutions to this issue are either:

• to fit extra pickups to the loco & tender so they both pick-up power from both tracks.

• to remove the insulated joiners (so that both controllers can each power both sides of the join) - however you will need to ensure that only one controller’s power is used during the crossing and then the points are changed to isolate the circuits (before employing the other controller) - to prevent the controllers from conflicting with each other.

• to power both controllers from the same power supply - requires a PSU with enough amps and a means of connecting the separate controllers (in parallel) to it.

[Ralphy51]

@ralphy what you are describing is exactly the scenario when a loco only picks up power through left or right track and tender picks up through the opposite track. When your tracks share the controller’s power supply the loco & tender are still maintaining a circuit at the point where the tracks are separated by insulated joiners.

However when your tracks are powered by separate controller’s power supplies insulated joiners prevent the circuit being maintained. The reason that increased speed of loco disguises this occurrence is that the first tender wheel crosses the insulated joiner through momentum and re-establishes the circuit quickly enough to prevent the loco stalling.

The solutions to this issue are either:

• to fit extra pickups to the loco & tender so they both pick-up power from both tracks.

• to remove the insulated joiners (so that both controllers can each power both sides of the join) - however you will need to ensure that only one controller’s power is used during the crossing and then the points are changed to isolate the circuits (before employing the other controller) - to prevent the controllers from conflicting with each other.

• to power both controllers from the same power supply - requires a PSU with enough amps and a means of connecting the separate controllers (in parallel) to it.

 

 

Appreciate your suggestions . Because I’m using the HMDC controls the option to not having the insulated fishplates doesn’t seem to work , I tried it yesterday . The controllers are too sensitive and easily trip out as locos cross .

With regard to having to increase speed to cross the insulated joints, I totally get that but in my layout I have one crossover point where I do not have a problem and can cross at lower speed but the second crossover , with identical geometry , needs a slightly higher speed . I’ve been testing continuity and swapping pieces of track around and the conclusion at the moment is that it is only the crossover moving from one HM6000 to another is the point at which the problem occurs .

Thanks for your interest though.

 

 

 

 

[Fishmanoz]

Ralphy, on seeing LT’s explanation, I agree fully. And your only solution appears to be fitting more pickups.

Why in this day and age Hornby are saving at most a few pence by using this system and not having pickups on all wheels, I have no idea.

PS. Could you please stop routinely quoting others’ replies in your reply, particularly as you often then include your content in the quoted area and make it hard to find what you are saying. Much better to use the text box at the bottom of the page, just like everyone else is doing.