faulty motors

[Going Spare]

In his original post, Curly said the controller is a Gaugemaster 100M, an analogue unit.

[P-Henny]

Are you running two lines simultaneously from one controller? I’m trying to visualise how your tracks are set up.

 

 

Curly has clearly stated that he has two loops wired together to a single GM 100M DC Analogue controller output (hence the multiple DC track power connectors - he has made no mention of using Point Clips which would normally be used with DCC. Although in a single DC Analogue controller scenario, the DCC Point Clips can technically be used on the loop crossover points). He has also indicated that only a single loco (train) is run on both loops at a time controlled by the 100M. His other locos being either stored in isolated sidings or removed entirely from the track.

[ColinB]

Reading all the posts he said there was signs of melting around the motor, two things can cause that either his controller is sourcing an extremely high voltage or something is getting stuck on the gearing. Now if there is something wrong with the motor then you could get arcing that could possibly do it. I don't think his layout could do it with shorting clips or not, electricity doesn't work that way, if you get a short the motor doesn't work. He says Hornby have fixed his locos so they would have checked the motors, so probably the fault will go away.

[ntpntpntp]

@John-L I interpreted "power clip" as the usual 2-wire power feed into the side of the track.

There's nothing inherently "DCC only" about the point clips, they're simply a convenient way to make both routes of a point live which is the preferred approach for DCC. You can use them for DC if desired, though usually people want the points to isolate the closed route to park a train. Other brands of point have had similar wire U clips for decades.

Personally I would fit proper dropper wires rather than use the point clips.

[John-L]

Yea I read it as wire droppers at first, but it occurred to me that a loco could be getting juice from two controllers if the points islolation had been overridden?

Im not sure you would want a two track layout with only one controller? So assuming there is a controller for each track?

If so could they be putting too much power to the layout and overheating the motors?

From pictures it seems the Gaugemaster 100m controller has two track connections on the back, plus a 16v power out.

Is it possible that the wiring is connected in a manner that is sending too much power to the track?

Pictures of the 100m controller here: https://www.gaugemasterretail.com/gaugemaster-gmc-100m.html

[P-Henny]

From pictures it seems the Gaugemaster 100m controller has two track connections on the back, plus a 16v power out.

 

 

The manual (downloadable from the same linked webpage) states that the Track 2 output is only live when the optional walkabout hand controller is attached.

 

 

[Curly 52]

i have the tracks set up to the track mat plan, i am using two tt8027 power connecting clips to power the inner track circle from the outer circle. i am running a DC set up power from the controller GM100 goes to the tt8001 power connecting track on the outer circle

[Curly 52]

on the GM100 only one set of track conections is live

[Hobby11]

i have the tracks set up to the track mat plan, i am using two tt8027 power connecting clips to power the inner track circle from the outer circle. i am running a DC set up power from the controller GM100 goes to the tt8001 power connecting track on the outer circle

 

 

If it has a crossover between the two you could possibly have a short circuit if the crossover points are set a certain way. I tend to put double insulating rail joiners between the crossover points to make the two circuits electrically separate. It's difficult to diagnose issues like this without seeing the layout itself, would it be possible to get a photo of it and mark where the track feeds are?

 

 

[Rallymatt]

If locos are running now after repairs ok, that would tend to suggest there isn’t a ‘permanent’ issue with track, eg too many feeds in (although that’s confirmed now? Or installed shorts.

On overloading the loco Curly, you will have wheel spin before motor stalls on full power, without traction tyres and a relatively light weight the wheels will spin out. I run 12 vans, 4 ferry vans behind A3 or shunt around with no problems. The 14 tankers and a pair of brake vans are more than Hornby locos can pull, wheel spin unless it’s perfectly straight track.

[Curly 52]

[RDS]

RDS Mod Note: @Curly52 All pictures require Moderator approval before they appear on the Forum. Please don't keeping pressing ENTER.

All your duplicate pictures have been deleted.

[Curly 52]

photos of my layout have been refused by one of the moderators very sorry

[Curly 52]

sorry it was duplicates of my photos that were declined my mistake

the first photo is my layout the second photo is the link between inner and outer tracks the third photo is the power supply from the GM 100 controller . the two trains that i have at the moment ie Easterner and GBRF shunter running fine at this time takeing turns on the tracks, hopefully will get BR shunter back next week thank you for your ideas.

[Hobby11]

Thanks for that!

The first comment I'd make is that you have what is called a "double track oval", two separate circuits where you can run a train on each independently. Therefore if you are trying to run the whole layout using just one controller then it's inevitable that you'll have issues. A double track layout like that needs two controllers, the Gaugemaster D would be OK, or you need another controller similar to yours, one powers the outside circuit and one the inside.

Looking at the layout you only need two feeds, one for each circuit, I'd put them at the front, by the station, you have one there on the outside circuit, you just need another on the inside circuit. I suspect the issues have been caused because you're trying to run the whole layout on one controller which doesn't really work..

The way to look at feeds for DC is to feed at the tow end of the points. So if you look at that layout you will see that if you put the feeds (one from each controer) on the straight by the station before (to the left of) the crossover the electricity will feed all the sidings and the crossover. There is no need for any more feeds if you are running two controllers.

Hope that makes sense and sorry that I've been the bearer of bad tidings in that you'll have to spend some more money! One thing, though, is that you'll get to run two trains at once!

[Fishmanoz]

All of which fails to explain all the faulty motors.

Trust they now keep working well.

PS. If you need some advice on layout wiring, the best on the forums is found here: https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/getting-started-sets-and-track-mat-expansion-packs-322713

Written for OO but equally applicable to TT:120.

[Rallymatt]

Hard to establish 100% but if colour coding on wires is consistent it looks like you have switched the polarity on the inner loop. The power clips are mounted from inside of loop so they work in reverse to the main power track.

I would double check this.

Agree with Hobby that moving inner feed to same area as outer will give better feed across the inner loop and you will benefit from a second controller to run inner loop.

[Hobby11]

PS. If you need some advice on layout wiring, the best on the forums is found here: https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/getting-started-sets-and-track-mat-expansion-packs-322713

 

 

Thanks, for that link, I was trying to find it!

Personally I'd get a second controller, there's no point in having a double oval and one controller, it defeats the whole object of having two ovals! And it simplyfies the wiring.

[ColinB]

I agree with you Fishmanoz entirely, none of it would have an effect on the motors, which is what I have been trying to say.

[P-Henny]

And I second that opinion.

[Rallymatt]

What madness is this ?

You can’t have inner and outer loops on opposite polarity. If there is any possibility of this occurring it needs to be established and corrected if needed.

[LTSR_NSE]

@Rallymatt nobody is suggesting that opposite polarity track loops are either a good idea or useful for a working layout. However the OP is not reporting experiencing either short circuits or cutouts.

So unless their controller has absolutely no short circuit protection & when the short is introduced & loco gets stuck - they are simply allowing it to sit there until the motor burns itself out - it is not the most likely cause of their reported issues.

However it would certainly be advisable for the OP to check both the polarity of their tracks & the protection status of their controller - to ensure this unlikely scenario is not the cause!

[moawkwrd]

So unless their controller has absolutely no short circuit protection & when the short is introduced & loco gets stuck - they are simply allowing it to sit there until the motor burns itself out - it is not the most likely cause of their reported issues.

 

 

GM controllers have been shown to output 5A+ for multiple seconds before their protection kicks in, after which they just keep resetting - so well worth double checking considering the number of controllers and locomotives OP has been through beyond all other reported failure rates.

 

 

It’s possible in that case they’d only experience issues when points were switched between the loops?

[96RAF]

It is possible a point could be faulty. Worth checking them iaw the method in the other forum section faqs.

https://uk.hornby.com/community/forum/faq-why-does-throwing-my-hornby-point-short-circuit-trip-my-controller

[ColinB]

A point will not blow up a motor. The loco might stall on that point because the back to back spacing is wrong on the loco. The motor then draws maximum current and burns out. I burned out a lot of DCC decoders that way. The motor will only draw its maximum stall current so whether the short circuit protection is 5 amps or 20 amps it makes no difference. Now possibly if the motor stalls and the armature overheats causing the insulation on the armature windings to melt and fuse the wires together creating a short. The 5 amp limit will have an effect in that there will be enough power to melt the motor but by that time the motor is damaged beyond repair anyway.