96RAF Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 9 hours ago, Adam-1306585 said: Hornby could have had talks with other sound profile creators and came up with an approved third party ‘Content Store’ so people could download sound profiles that already exist, Do you think these 3rd party folk wold pay a licence fee, then charge per product just to get their profiles onto a 7K decoder and if so who would buy them as it would likely be as expensive as say a Loksound or Zimo decoder plus load. Also if the protocol found its way into the public domain Liais would have a copy out within weeks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM6 Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 I don't think a model train company is directly comparable to the aviation industry. In the grand scheme of things, Hornby is a small company with a commensurately small development team. How long would it be before the weekly update would announce that profile X has been delayed because the developer has to take their cat to the vet. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 9 hours ago, Adam-1306585 said: I didn’t mean beta testers such as yourself. I meant the Hornby build/test team A requirement is listed, then the sound engineer builds the basic profile of planned functions and sources the sounds for those functions. Whether these are live recordings or library stock or make do and mend from common sounds is down to the availability or not of the loco being profiled. Of course there is more to a profile than just sounds; e.g motor profiling, added hardware functions like variable fans, if a sound plays when in motion or stationary, if it is directional, steam generator synch, etc. Once that initial build is assembled and checked out it goes to the test team who attempt to break it, etc. After some back and forth it is deemed fit for release. Some profiles have to be ready for a loco launch, i.e if factory fitted. Others come along as and when they are scheduled and ready. As stated the resource for this is limited at Hornby, they do not have a cast of thousands sitting waiting to someone to say 'Fred' needs a Class 99, chop-chop, lets have it out by lunchtime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brew Man Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 (edited) @Adam1306585 If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting downloading a sound profile from another manufacturer while Hornby's version is awaiting release. If so this would not work as the file formats are totally different and incompatible. And, as dBerriff says, I can't imagine other manufacturers being happy to allow their sound files to be used in others decoders. Edited May 19 by Brew Man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulleidboy Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 It will be worth the wait when it arrives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brew Man Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 (edited) Yes, I'm quite used to not getting progress reports from Hornby regarding release dates on a variety of products. Doesn't make it right but I try to live with what I've got. I'm sure the only result of me getting annoyed and raising complaints would be to give me a headache. Edited May 19 by Brew Man 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 1 hour ago, SteveM6 said: I don't think a model train company is directly comparable to the aviation industry. In the grand scheme of things, Hornby is a small company with a commensurately small development team. How long would it be before the weekly update would announce that profile X has been delayed because the developer has to take their cat to the vet. Actually you would be quite surprised, I have worked for avionics and automotive. On the automotive the electronics were generally small teams and in the case of of an instrument cluster at one point, only one guy. On EEC (powertrain control) we initially didn't have that many people, similarly on radios not that many on software. Hornby probably have added complication because they have to provide menus for the HW7000, if it was straight DCC they could turn it round very quickly, as is demonstrated by a lot of the sound decoder suppliers, who I gather have even less staff. The difficult bit is getting the necessary sound recording. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam-1306585 Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 (edited) 2 hours ago, SteveM6 said: I don't think a model train company is directly comparable to the aviation industry. In the grand scheme of things, Hornby is a small company with a commensurately small development team. How long would it be before the weekly update would announce that profile X has been delayed because the developer has to take their cat to the vet. Of course it’s not directly comparable, but the point still stands. By saying aviation manufacturers, I’m not talking about the likes of Boeing and Airbus, and for you to think I was is being disingenuous on your part. Like any industry, there are many small manufacturers too. 49 minutes ago, Brew Man said: @Adam1306585 If I understand you correctly, you are suggesting downloading a sound profile from another manufacturer while Hornby's version is awaiting release. If so this would not work as the file formats are totally different and incompatible. And, as dBerriff says, I can't imagine other manufacturers being happy to allow their sound files to be used in others decoders. i did suggest a ‘Content Store’, meaning you’d have to pay to download the profiles. That way, the other manufacturer would still be making income. The file formats could also be changed and/or re-recorded as well. All I’m saying is they’ve missed a trick with these decoders, especially when it comes to getting younger people into the hobby, such as my 9 year old daughter, who LOVES the Bluetooth control and sounds, but hates that there isn’t anything close to a Pendolino available on the decoder. Edited May 19 by Adam-1306585 Grammar edit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam-1306585 Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 3 hours ago, 96RAF said: Do you think these 3rd party folk wold pay a licence fee, then charge per product just to get their profiles onto a 7K decoder and if so who would buy them as it would likely be as expensive as say a Loksound or Zimo decoder plus load. Also if the protocol found its way into the public domain Liais would have a copy out within weeks. I honestly do believe people would be willing to pay a licence fee to have approved 3rd party profiles, because before HM7000, that’s what they were doing anyway. The only reason people are using the HM7000 is because control is easier via Bluetooth and quicker to edit CV’s. The only reason I got into the HM7000 system was because of my daughters, who can’t operate sounds competently using controllers, but can use an app rather fluently. My eldest has a Pendolino…she loves it, and she loves using her phone to control it, but she hates that the closest profile is a ‘dirty diesel’ (class 43) as she knows that’s not how they sound in real life. Hornby have proven that they can successfully collaborate with other manufacturers, as they love to claim with TT:120. And as I’ve mentioned, I’m far from the only person who’s suggested this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 18 minutes ago, Adam-1306585 said: I honestly do believe people would be willing to pay a licence fee to have approved 3rd party profiles, because before HM7000, that’s what they were doing anyway. The only reason people are using the HM7000 is because control is easier via Bluetooth and quicker to edit CV’s. The only reason I got into the HM7000 system was because of my daughters, who can’t operate sounds competently using controllers, but can use an app rather fluently. My eldest has a Pendolino…she loves it, and she loves using her phone to control it, but she hates that the closest profile is a ‘dirty diesel’ (class 43) as she knows that’s not how they sound in real life. Hornby have proven that they can successfully collaborate with other manufacturers, as they love to claim with TT:120. And as I’ve mentioned, I’m far from the only person who’s suggested this. A decent DCC system you can control with an app, I have the z21 app that I use in conjunction with my rechipped Digikeijs. I must admit I prefer a pc front end with a mouse but the z21 app is pretty good, you can load a picture of the loco and set up the function keys, of course the HW7000 front end does all that for you but only for Hornby locos. The z21 also has the advantage in that it uses the Digikeijs as a pass through device so you don't have to define a pure DCC loco twice (once on the HM7000 and once in the Elite/Select that you are using with the dongle). You can also control two locos on the same screen in landscape mode. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dBerriff Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 (edited) My point was only that Hornby can only do what is possible and in terms of using other suppliers content that means they can only licence what other developers are prepared to licence. I have been told that preparing audio for DCC is quite an art and I suspect that there aren’t that many specialists out there. So you cannot just subcontract a designer/developer by the hour as I could when I was managing projects. Edited May 19 by dBerriff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brew Man Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 @ColinB When you say, 'the HW7000 front end does all that for you but only for Hornby locos', that is not true. You can fit an HM7000 decoder into any make of loco, so long as it is NMRA compliant, and of course there is sufficient space. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 3 minutes ago, dBerriff said: My point was only that Hornby can only do what is possible and in terms of using other suppliers content that means they can only licence what other developers are prepared to licence. I have been told that preparing audio for DCC is quite an art and I suspect that there aren’t that many specialists out there. So you cannot just subcontract a designer/developer by the hour as I could when I was managing projects. I must admit I don't know how Hornby do it but I assume Loksound and Zimo have probably a standard set up, pointer table to separate functions containing the individual sound entries. It must be pretty constant because the likes of YouChoos, Road and Rails and others have a standard way of adding their own recordings. A bit like how we used to add calibration/tuning data to an engine control unit software. They just have to agree to a common format. Either way it doesn't help much, Hornby likes to be insular. To me once you have the sound file it should be pretty easy but as I say it is probably the support functions that take the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 For those of you who want to know how a sound file is assembled go onto the ESU site where they have tutorials and if you have their £150 programmer and and ESU decoder you can download sample files and build your own. Once you have spent a week doing that you may appreciate it is not a five minute job anybody can knock together in their tea break. They do however have ready to load files which are literally a five minute load. I have their VW Microbus in my Class 108 DMU until Hornby gets a DMU for me to load on a 7K. Ref electric trains, load the Class 73 into your Pendo and forget about the diesel option, by leaving F5 toggled in electric mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColinB Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 1 minute ago, Brew Man said: @ColinB When you say, 'the HW7000 front end does all that for you but only for Hornby locos', that is not true. You can fit an HM7000 decoder into any make of loco, so long as it is NMRA compliant, and of course there is sufficient space. Of course you can, the function tables though and photos for setting up the HW7000 all refer to Hornby locos. Of course you can load an equivalent Hornby setup if you are putting a HW7000 into another loco. Then if you are like me you have a load of LokSound and Zimo sound decoders from different sound suppliers it is not going to do that. I was just pointing out that using the z21 app means that you have to do a lot of that work yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brew Man Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 @Adam-1306585 When you say, 'The only reason people are using the HM7000 is because control is easier via Bluetooth and quicker to edit CV’s', there are at least two other big reasons and they are cost and the fact that the sound profiles are free and transferable. Currently the cost of an HM7000 chip is less than two thirds the cost of other well makes of sound decoder. That is a massive sales advantage. What do you think would happen to that edge if Hornby started going into licensing deals with other companies? I'm guessing the price point would increase significantly. And do you thing sound profiles would remain free? I don't think so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brew Man Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 4 minutes ago, ColinB said: Of course you can, the function tables though and photos for setting up the HW7000 all refer to Hornby locos. Of course you can load an equivalent Hornby setup if you are putting a HW7000 into another loco. Then if you are like me you have a load of LokSound and Zimo sound decoders from different sound suppliers it is not going to do that. I was just pointing out that using the z21 app means that you have to do a lot of that work yourself. At 74 I'm all for the easy life, Colin 🤣 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam-1306585 Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 12 minutes ago, 96RAF said: For those of you who want to know how a sound file is assembled go onto the ESU site where they have tutorials and if you have their £150 programmer and and ESU decoder you can download sample files and build your own. Once you have spent a week doing that you may appreciate it is not a five minute job anybody can knock together in their tea break. They do however have ready to load files which are literally a five minute load. I have their VW Microbus in my Class 108 DMU until Hornby gets a DMU for me to load on a 7K. Ref electric trains, load the Class 73 into your Pendo and forget about the diesel option, by leaving F5 toggled in electric mode. I did try downloading the Class 73 onto 3 different decoders a couple months back and it kept saying there were issues with missing sound files, which is why I’ve settled with Class 43 profiles for now. Might try the ‘73 again and see if it’s been fixed. 14 minutes ago, Brew Man said: @Adam-1306585 When you say, 'The only reason people are using the HM7000 is because control is easier via Bluetooth and quicker to edit CV’s', there are at least two other big reasons and they are cost and the fact that the sound profiles are free and transferable. Currently the cost of an HM7000 chip is less than two thirds the cost of other well makes of sound decoder. That is a massive sales advantage. What do you think would happen to that edge if Hornby started going into licensing deals with other companies? I'm guessing the price point would increase significantly. And do you thing sound profiles would remain free? I don't think so I apologise for missing them two points off…they are cheap as chips, but that’s also because they are cheap as chips. And there’s no reason why Hornby couldn’t have created an approved 3rd party ‘Content Store’ to allow other companies to sell their profiles, and keep the Hornby profiles free….similar to how in TSW4, they’ve built in the facility for people to make up their own liveries and to then share them so other people can easily download them and try them out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
96RAF Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 16 minutes ago, Brew Man said: At 74 I'm all for the easy life, Colin 🤣 Wait until you get to my age David, then you can be a grumpty old .... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brew Man Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 I can feel it coming, Rob. In fact it might already be here 😱 😂 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM6 Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 Although I'm lagging behind in years, I believe I am way ahead in the G.O.G. stakes.😏 Mrs G.O.G. agrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brew Man Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 Rob I are considering running tuition classes, Steve. 😂 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew-372848 Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 I could teach you a thing or two in that department! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveM6 Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 18 minutes ago, Brew Man said: Rob I are considering running tuition classes, Steve. 😂 I've already taking notes.😈 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yelrow Posted May 19 Share Posted May 19 I am 80, and according to Heather, already both old and grumpy. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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