Build you own?

[Simmo009]

Check out Jenny Kirk’s latest video on YouTube, where she attempts to build a loco (Black 5) from the kit of parts. There are no instruction sheets, which is as per factory conditions. The number of parts and complexity of the build is astounding, and makes you realise why our cherished purchases cost what they do, at least the latest toolings anyway. Viewing this, I do wonder how the steam locomotives are so reasonably priced, especially when you compare with something from Roco or Marklin. 

[SteveM6]

Don't do it Colin.

[ColinB]

Please, please don't go there, the thread on RMWeb has just been closed because there were so many negative answers. If you want to up Jenny's YouTube viewing figures then go there, in reality nobody would build a loco like that unless they were doing it as a hobby. It bears no relation to how the factories in China produce them, if they did they would be forever building them. 

[Simmo009]

I’m not suggesting anyone should even think about doing this, but view it and appreciate the amount of highly skilled manual labour required to get the latest model into our hands, and understand that the price is not unreasonable for what goes into producing these things for us. I don’t agree with all of Hornby’s price points, but the latest toolings are magnificent examples of engineering in miniature, at what I see are quite reasonable prices (to me at least).

[LTSR_NSE]

Surely it is not intended to be a representation/reconstruction of an actual assembly line process - but simply a demonstration of the sheer number of parts & (even with assembly jigs/tools/assistance etc.) the complex skills & dexterity involved!

Edited June 28 by LTSR_NSE

[Deem]

I haven't seen that video as yet, but last night I bought an incomplete Kit built Loco from eBay with the hope to polish my skills and have working Loco as an reward. I like to see more people do that because the hard work does pay in the end when you complete a task and have what ever you building working and functioning fully. This will be my first attempt so I will share my experience with you all, but if gets completed and works, I am sure I will enjoy and cherish like I used to when I use to tackle a challenge fixing a incomplete motorbike or in parts motorbikes in the 80's and 90's without any manual or google or you tube in those days.

[atom3624]

I really didn't understand the reasons for creating the video.

The number of times there was a halt to seek advice how to, to realign,  ... that's why these guys are highly experienced, highly skilled and have all of the specific jigs required to enable construction.

10 minutes of my life I won't get back - sorry, but not impressed.

If it was to impress on how difficult and complicated the construction is, that's a given.

Al.

[96RAF]

What was missed is that in a factory environment sub assemblies would produced by individual areas (valve gear, drive wheels and rods, bogies, chassis, etc) then these are made into major sub assemblies (body, tender and chassis) which are then assembled into the complete loco.

The video wasn't meant to replicate that scenario but to illustrate the large number of bits involved and how fiddly they are to put together.

The factory would initially have a production engineers build scheme gleaned from the manufacturing drawings, so they weren't working from a dead start like the gideo did.

[What About The Bee]

Exactly 96RAF.  

The engineer who designs something must absolutely know how to put it together.  Its a requirement of the position, be it models, automobiles or industrial machinery.

We were producing a first of a kind bit of kit.  ~3.5M USD per.  The technician was spending a dog's age putting in a screw.  When I asked him about it, he handed me the screw.  "You do it".  ½ hour later, I recognized it was near impossible.  I dragged the mechanical engineer out to the floor by his nose and handed him the screw.  I ordered him to install it, being forbidden to leave until it was done.  Eventually, he got it in place but stated that a redesign was clearly needed.  Excellent observation (sarcasm).

Having access to the mechanical engineering team and designers would have made Jenny's task much, much easier.  All the thinking part, of how to do it, goes away.  Someone has already considered how to do it.  Its just the doing part that is left, which is difficult enough as it is. 

Bee

 

[ColinB]

34 minutes ago, 96RAF said:

What was missed is that in a factory environment sub assemblies would produced by individual areas (valve gear, drive wheels and rods, bogies, chassis, etc) then these are made into major sub assemblies (body, tender and chassis) which are then assembled into the complete loco.

The video wasn't meant to replicate that scenario but to illustrate the large number of bits involved and how fiddly they are to put together.

The factory would initially have a production engineers build scheme gleaned from the manufacturing drawings, so they weren't working from a dead start like the gideo did.

I don't know what it meant to achieve, ask anyone that builds one of those kits for a loco and they will tell you how long it takes, but that is not the point. I don't know what it was trying to achieve, you guys moan when Sam pulls a stunt like that.

[ColinB]

6 minutes ago, What About The Bee said:

Exactly 96RAF.  

The engineer who designs something must absolutely know how to put it together.  Its a requirement of the position, be it models, automobiles or industrial machinery.

We were producing a first of a kind bit of kit.  ~3.5M USD per.  The technician was spending a dog's age putting in a screw.  When I asked him about it, he handed me the screw.  "You do it".  ½ hour later, I recognized it was near impossible.  I dragged the mechanical engineer out to the floor by his nose and handed him the screw.  I ordered him to install it, being forbidden to leave until it was done.  Eventually, he got it in place but stated that a redesign was clearly needed.  Excellent observation (sarcasm).

Having access to the mechanical engineering team and designers would have made Jenny's task much, much easier.  All the thinking part, of how to do it, goes away.  Someone has already considered how to do it.  Its just the doing part that is left, which is difficult enough as it is. 

Bee

 

I suppose because we were a big company but we used to have a Pilot Plant where we tried out new builds before they became mainstream.

[What About The Bee]

That's right @ColinB

Its a function of the quantity in the production run.  A large order for that firm was 20 pieces.  Usually it was just a handful of very expensive industrial machines 

Bee

[Rallymatt]

I think the main gist of the video was to get people to recognise the sheer quality of components that make up a modern model and that despite some automation much of the assembly is done by hand by highly skilled model makers. 
The factory absolutely will have assembly guides for each sub assembly so people know what goes where. 
The video does highlight that it’s not just a case of pressing a button and a model pops out which sadly what a lot of people thinks happen. 

[Rallymatt]

Pre-production runs are a luxury that big players can enjoy. Iron out bottle necks and issues in assembly etc and also provide a stock of virtually retail ready products that can be tested etc. a large French car manufacturer regularly used to have to crush the first 1000 cars or so off the line, they said they were ‘pre-production’ (they weren’t) Diamond Geezers…. 😉

[ColinB]

8 minutes ago, Rallymatt said:

Pre-production runs are a luxury that big players can enjoy. Iron out bottle necks and issues in assembly etc and also provide a stock of virtually retail ready products that can be tested etc. a large French car manufacturer regularly used to have to crush the first 1000 cars or so off the line, they said they were ‘pre-production’ (they weren’t) Diamond Geezers…. 😉

That is a bit wasteful, it was never that many. Sometimes you crush them because of tax rules. Just before I retired we were actually selling them, I got dragged up to a field on an airfield to reprogram about 100 cars so we could sell them.

[What About The Bee]

What is a LARGE production run for us:  3500?

Many are advertised as limited to 500.

Pilot programs may be a bit of a stretch.

Bee

Edited June 29 by What About The Bee
Perhaps a handful? Or 1, built by the engineer?

[ColinB]

51 minutes ago, What About The Bee said:

That's right @ColinB

Its a function of the quantity in the production run.  A large order for that firm was 20 pieces.  Usually it was just a handful of very expensive industrial machines 

Bee

Surely then if it is so few it is cheaper to put up with the difficulty in fitting the screw rather than a costly redesign. You won't believe the fixes we used to have to put into our engine control software to fix design issues, because it was cheaper than redesigning say a cylinder head and no we didn't do a VW and fiddle the emissions.

I am still trying to figure what was in it for Hornby, get someone in that would probably be useless on a production line to show us how many parts go into to making a model railway. Just go and watch a Sam's video, he normally identifies all the separately fitted parts.

[What About The Bee]

Always a judgment call Colin.  

For this particular field¹, downtime in the field was extraordinarily expensive.  It was a bottleneck step in the process.  Downtime was over $50k/hour; but could range higher depending upon process flow.  Clients tend to get hopping mad over that.  The S/N curve indicated sporadic repair.  So we would end up with ridiculous back charges WHEN the assembly failed.

You needed arms like an orangutan, the dexterity of a virtuoso and to top it off, on your back, under the machine, for a screw and tapped hole you could not see.

Fix it.

Bee

¹ Not locomotive manufacturing.  It is competition sensitive, so I cannot say.  Sorry.

[96RAF]

Colin until you get a grip of exactly the stages a loco (or any other HH toy) goes thru' from design concept to actual sale then its a waste of my time banging my head against your brick wall. The stages were shown in the 2 series of Hornby a Model World for all their brands. It is not a bash it out and build it job.

[Rallymatt]

@ColinB interesting you say you were involved in putting pre-production cars into public arena 😳 that’s illegal! 

[Loewietje]

So I just saw the video and I don’t get all the hate. I found it interesting, and I suppose a novice in railway modelling would too. Don’t like it, don’t watch it. Nowhere does she claim or pretend she is doing it the same way like in the factories, or is she trying to ‘proof’ something. 
If you check James May’s Reassembler, you’ll find that the Hornby FS video is the most popular one. So there is an interest in these kinds of videos. 

[SteveM6]

I too don't get the animosity displayed both here and on another forum. Some of the comments have been rather distasteful and unnecessary. Some left me thinking it wasn't the video or the subject that they didn't like but rather the maker of said video.

Personally, I found it interesting and a useful pointer as to what actually goes into producing one of these models, both from assembly back to the original research and design.

Hornby had already done something similar in perhaps a less animated way, this photo was taken at the WonderWorks last year of a disassembled Princess Elizabeth. I wouldn't know where to start.

[LTSR_NSE]

11 minutes ago, SteveM6 said:

Hornby had already done something similar in perhaps a less animated way, this photo was taken at the WonderWorks last year of a disassembled Princess Elizabeth. I wouldn't know where to start.

Judging by the absence of valve gear (& body confirms) it is the Turbomotive.

Pedant exits with coat… 🤓

Edited June 29 by LTSR_NSE

[SteveM6]

23 minutes ago, LTSR_NSE said:

Judging by the absence of valve gear (& body confirms) it is the Turbomotive.

Pedant exits with coat… 🤓

You are absolutely right - my bad.

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, Rallymatt said:

@ColinB interesting you say you were involved in putting pre-production cars into public arena 😳 that’s illegal! 

It appears not, there are many levels of pre production, these were the last ones generally used for press releases. I just did as I was told, I must admit I was surprised, we used to crush them, I imagine the tax rules must have changed. It was a long time ago so who knows.