Scale, but not too fine please

[Paul-41ATI]

Hi, an appeal to manufacturers please - TT120 is a superb scale and with modern CAD/CAM production techniques models are exquisite.  However, for items like handrails, etc, actual 1: 120 reduction looks too thin - such parts need to be slightly overscale in diameter to look right (I'm not advocating Tillig or Piko but they seem to have got it right in this respect).

Also, what would be really super given the new nature of TT120 in the UK, would be for any manufacturers to have a standard common interface for bogies, ie, height of centre pivot, pivot pin diameter, sidebearer positions, etc. This would, in future, enable change out of different types from different manufacturers.

[Ilmson]

I have to disagree here, for me I love it very detailed, which is why I like the manufacturers' new ambitions. Of course, the locomotive should still have surfaces to grip.

And simplified models should also be offered for children, but the collector's models can stay fine.

[Rallymatt]

I am another in favour of keeping the fine scale details. That’s the advantage of Hornby launching into TT:120 with modern manufacturing and new tooling, to move backwards would be a mistake. 

[ntpntpntp]

Fine detail is all very good but not if it increases fragility and is at the expense of reliable smooth running.  A common complaint in the British N gauge world is the modern production locos look lovely but don't have the bulletproof robustness and easy servicing of older models, and  locos and coaches are being produced which won't run round the tighter curves of peoples' existing layout trackwork - a great way of alienating long-time fans of the brand.  In N and even TT:120 the fine detail really isn't that visible from normal viewing distances.

[dBerriff]

I confess that I only realised just how good the detail is when I looked at photographs of my locomotives. So in practical terms a lot of the exquisite detail is lost on my ageing eyes. I understand though that others have the eyesight I used to have. 

TT:120 Railroad anyone?

[Hobby11]

I agree with the majority, I feel Hornby have got it just about right on detail. I recon it's far too early for a Railroad version of them as yet, they only have a limited range and need to concentrate on developing that rather than go down another route.

[Rallymatt]

@ntpntpntp Makes a point that I also fully agree with, running quality must go alongside with fine detail. Although some detail can’t be seen immediately, they are like little hidden gems from the designers. 
I think we will probably never see a Railroad range in TT:120, the OO version is based on quite old toolings from Hornby’s back catalogue and other brands they bought out such as Lima, then with some tweaking to mechanisms and decoration. 

[Kenneth-365689]

I am in the 'Robust and Reliable' camp on this one. Two of my very nice 20t mineral wagons are now without brake gear on one side, and I've only had them a few weeks 😥. On the other hand my 3mm Triang TT mineral wagons have been kicking, and possibly kicked, around for over 60 years and are still very much as good as when they left the factory 🙂👍. I doubt very much that my new 'Super Detailed' stock will be see life that far down the track.... Beautiful is only Beautiful if it's not Beautiful and Broken.. So for me, maybe those advocating a TT120 Railroad Range may be on the money... If Hornby doesn't do it, then maybe someone else will step up and fill that space.

[Hobby11]

I'm not sure a comparison with 1950s Triang is a fair one. For a start they were designed to be played with by kids and so detail was as best "basic" (painted raised mouldings for handrails for example), yes they were pretty much indestructible, but realism was only a step up from tinplate (OK, a slight exaggeration, but you know what i mean!). The fact is that most modern RTR stock is bought by people who want the level of detail we have and will handle it accordingly. As for kids, they are allowed to play with it, but with a limit on top speed and no touching! Hornby and the others make their money these days from the adult buyers, not kids, it's a different market to the old days.

Just what is "Railroad" anyhow? Who has defined what should be there and what shouldn't and how "scale" things like handrails should be?

Of course if people want less detail then, as most of it is added to the original model, it should be easy enough to remove it.

[Charlie 66]

I never thought we'd get to the point of discussing too much detail on products 🙂

[Rallymatt]

I’m going suggest, quite a lot of the hobby returnees had layouts or train sets in the 60-80’s (me included) where there were virtually no separately fitted parts, maybe a handrail on a steam loco and in OO it would be quite robust. I was looking at a OO steam generator loco on a rolling road yesterday next to a TT loco, I’d forgotten how huge OO is! 
I think the thing we all need to get used to is models are more detailed as that is what people were clamouring for and TT:120 due to its size is delicate. My advice is keep handling to the absolute minimum. 😁

[Les-345151]

This is reminding me of debates in the plastic kits realm where increasingly intricate, never to be seen again internal detail is becoming the norm, together with the associated design. tooling and retail costs. While this is great for the 'serious modeller' it is not of much practical use to those who want their Spitfires 'in flight' and who just want decent aircrew to fill the empty spaces.

[Kenneth-365689]

Hi Hobby11, yes, I get your point that it may be unfair to compare the old Triang 'Toy Trains' with the new TT120 offering. They were/are proberbly not aimed at the same market. For me though, the appeal of TT120 was that I could run (play with) reasonably long express trains in a smallish space. It was never about 'Super Detaile', that just happened to come with the package. I do understand that some, maybe the majority, are here for the superb detail on offer with TT120, but for me, I'm not that bothered. I just want to 'play Trains' rather than be the curator of a museum. No, I don't want 'painted bricks', but, hopefully there will be something midway between the two for those of us who do not have the dexterity to handle all that detail safely, nor the eyesight to appreciate it.. No wrongs or rights here, for me the scale is perfect, just a little bit to delicate, therefore my wish for something the same size, just a little less to susceptible to OAP clumsiness 🙄🚂

 

[Hobby11]

That's where we differ, I don't see them as super detailed.

Edited August 15 by Hobby11

[LTSR_NSE]

This is where die-cast bodies (or at least running boards) are a fantastic feature - provide an excellent, robust place to grab hold of that is away from moving parts & large enough to pick a place without too many delicate features.

[ateshci]

Ye olden days of diecast superstructures I remember American manufacturers offering superdetailing packages for their stock locos. Maybe that's a possibility to unite both worlds.

[Silver Fox 17]

7 minutes ago, ateshci said:

Ye olden days of diecast superstructures I remember American manufacturers offering superdetailing packages for their stock locos. Maybe that's a possibility to unite both worlds.

Hornby do their Dublo range as per Hornby Dublo with die-cast loco bodies, and, the TT 120 Duchess has a die-cast boiler and firebox.

[Rallymatt]

I think we will see die cast boilers etc more in TT:120. The big issue with smaller scales is getting weight into the locos. There is a very clear line with Hornby when that started, they are reacting, developing and at a very fast rate 

[LTSR_NSE]

If they can/could do metal bodies for their shunters (J50, Class 08 etc.) that would be especially helpful for weight & traction.  Like the 00 Pecketts & Rustons.

It would also increase the internal space for decoders, speakers & stay alives.

Edited August 15 by LTSR_NSE

[HST Mainline]

On 13/08/2024 at 08:45, Paul-41ATI said:

Also, what would be really super given the new nature of TT120 in the UK, would be for any manufacturers to have a standard common interface for bogies, ie, height of centre pivot, pivot pin diameter, sidebearer positions, etc. This would, in future, enable change out of different types from different manufacturers.

There is already a standard for that. Hornby follows the NEM standards for TT. This means kinematics on all models, couplings of a certain type, etc. etc.

All manufacturers should follow these standards. PECO does not seem to do that; from what I can see they use their 00 approach to NEM "pockets" without kinematics. This will cause trouble in the long run. All manufacturers should look beyond the UK for information on how to make TT models, everyone else has made them for years on end, and the standards are well established. Don't re-invent the wheel - please.

[Paul-41ATI]

9Hello Guys,

Didn't realise it would cause such opinion.

I am in total support of detail -  I have large collections of European HO and TT, and UK outline N - all finscale with excellent detailing - I do not own any poor quality moulded or die-cast models. The reason I am finescale with full detail ? - I use to design BR Traction & Rolling Stock, including bogie and wheelset design so I am a stickler for detail and proportion (OCD ?)

However, a 2" diameter handrail is only 0.416mm in scale diameter for TT120 - extremely fragile (the top handrails on the Hornby TTA catwalks are wire I presume in order to achieve this).

I am extremely supportive of Hornby TT120 - and have said this to Hornby directly, but being from the industry I notice things, eg, I have two complete trains of the Arnold TT cereal hoppers - absolutely superb except for a slight niggle with bogie moulding - the bogie side frames should be a complete continuous arc from suspension casting to suspension casting (ie, no straight section at each end where they meet the suspension castings) and the side frame should be slightly deeper (the moulded bogie looks a bit like a DB Y31 bogie type but having scale 920mm diameter wheels, not 840 as used on a Y31 type bogie (which would also require subtle changes to suspension springs axleboxes)). Having said that, the Arnold Multifret wagon is absolutely superb and I cannot fault it at all.

So, absolutely fully supportive of detail - and absolutely no going back to poor, inaccurate, grossly overscale mouldings.

[Paul-41ATI]

Should also add - I see no reason whatsoever for a "Railroad" range - there are no previous moulds in TT120 from defunct ranges to be used, ie, like old OO gauge Mainline, Lima, etc, and everything is new and Hornby will be using modern CAD/CAM production techniques.

[Paul-41ATI]

8 hours ago, HST Mainline said:

There is already a standard for that. Hornby follows the NEM standards for TT. This means kinematics on all models, couplings of a certain type, etc. etc.

All manufacturers should follow these standards. PECO does not seem to do that; from what I can see they use their 00 approach to NEM "pockets" without kinematics. This will cause trouble in the long run. All manufacturers should look beyond the UK for information on how to make TT models, everyone else has made them for years on end, and the standards are well established. Don't re-invent the wheel - please.

Hi, forgive me but given that I have many European TT (and HO) models, bogies do not appear to be inter-changeable according to any NEM standard between brands (though in HO I have managed to swap Y25, and LHB BR651 bogies between Roco and Sachsenmodelle - the Sachsenmodelle Y25 bogies are quite crude)

[Stephen-1260829]

1 hour ago, Paul-41ATI said:

Should also add - I see no reason whatsoever for a "Railroad" range - there are no previous moulds in TT120 from defunct ranges to be used, ie, like old OO gauge Mainline, Lima, etc, and everything is new and Hornby will be using modern CAD/CAM production techniques.

I beleive that Originally Hornby's railroad range was the older Lima tooling. As you suggest, there is no old tooling in TT120 (UK outline anyway) so it's not an option.  Commercially, the use of the rebranded Lima products made sense but time and expectations have moved on.  Even Hornby offer OO Railroad plus, with beter detail and paintwork.

I personally believe that Hornby have got the level of detail right given the restrictions of scale and materials.  I won't be clamouring for TT120 steam locos to have flickering fire boxes and smoke generators, this is a level of detail too far for me.  I will be insiting on proportion balance/accuaracy  and mechanical effecetiveness to the models I buy.

[Rallymatt]

@Paul-41ATI Nice to have an industry person on board, I’m pretty flexible with some elements of the ‘correct design’ but it’s great to hear from some with genuine first hand knowledge of the prototype, how accurate our models are. 
The tread boards on the TTA’s are etched and the hand rails are wire. Fine enough for my eyes and quite robust. Mine stood up well to handling while weathering. 👍

Edited August 16 by Rallymatt